bmw760 Posted March 31, 2021 Share #1 Posted March 31, 2021 Advertisement (gone after registration) Hi , does anybody know if the engraving on my Leica M3 is original? The camera has all the characteristics of an early M3. Many thanks Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/319447-leica-m3-serial-number-engraving/?do=findComment&comment=4171578'>More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted March 31, 2021 Posted March 31, 2021 Hi bmw760, Take a look here Leica M3 serial number engraving. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
luigi bertolotti Posted March 31, 2021 Share #2 Posted March 31, 2021 A bit disturbing... the Leitz writings look 100% original... M3 and s/n absolutely not... and I checked several pics of items in the 70x.xxx - even the first ones have the usual size for numbers, which here are clearly bigger : I tend to suppose it is a "fixing" made by some lab to repair from some damage - scratch or bounce or similar... I don't think it is made for willingness of faking... (unless there is some story of theft behind... but not a fake for collectors) 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
alan mcfall Posted March 31, 2021 Share #3 Posted March 31, 2021 How is this for a "close" serial number of mine, 709229. Just one digit away, and as Luigi says the numbers are correctly small, and it is likely that your large serial is the result of some type of change. Leitz stocked blank top plates for repair, and various repair centers arround the world had engraving templates. One would like to think these "templates" were identical to Wetzlar's, but perhaps not. Or, the correct templates were used incorrectly at a larger pantograph reduction than normal. The templates were in the range of 20- 25 mm high and scaled down with a setting adjustment on the engraver. I have several engravers, New Hermes and Green, likely other brands were used in other countries. Years ago, I sent several M2-M cameras back to New York for new top plates, as the originals had been hand engraved poorly with "US Navy". Some M3's assembeled in Canada, had a noticably larger font for the M3 part of the serial, but as far as I know the serial digits were the same as Wetzlar. It is also fair to say that the M camera top plate engraving in general varried over the years. Even the insignia for the two flash outlets evolved. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 4 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/319447-leica-m3-serial-number-engraving/?do=findComment&comment=4171622'>More sharing options...
pippy Posted March 31, 2021 Share #4 Posted March 31, 2021 1 hour ago, alan mcfall said: ...it is likely that your large serial is the result of some type of change. Leitz stocked blank top plates for repair, and various repair centers arround the world had engraving templates. One would like to think these "templates" were identical to Wetzlar's, but perhaps not... I'd guess that the camera in question has had a NOS top-plate swap and the engraver simply copied-over the original serial without any accurate means of replicating the typeface; if you look at the first digit closely you'll notice that the leading-edge vertically dropping part of the '7' (seen on Alan's camera) isn't on the OP's camera. Other details show that a different font has been used so it isn't just a case of 'wrong size'. Just FWIW I replaced the top-plate on my M2 a few years ago with an un-numbered NOS part and found no shortage of engravers who were willing to transfer the original serial onto the new plate just so long as, I'm happy to say, that they were allowed to destroy the old plate to ensure no duplication / fraudulent activity could result from their actions! I haven't gotten around to it yet but it's in the 'To Do' pile... Cue snap taken just after the swap. Infinity-lock button has, thankfully, been returned to normal; Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/319447-leica-m3-serial-number-engraving/?do=findComment&comment=4171677'>More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted March 31, 2021 Share #5 Posted March 31, 2021 Indeed... as Alan says, original spares for M top (not M3 only, of course) were made by Leitz and provided to repairers... I even remember that some well-equipped lab had (and maybe still has) some of them and displayed them in their sites (Goldberg ? Van Manen ? Don't remember but am sure to have seen). Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmw760 Posted April 1, 2021 Author Share #6 Posted April 1, 2021 Thank you everybody. That makes sense. Take care! Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerzy Posted April 1, 2021 Share #7 Posted April 1, 2021 Advertisement (gone after registration) in the past, whenever replacement top cover was ordered with Leitz the original had to be sent to them. It was returned then with serial number destroyed together with new top cover engraved. This was to keep track about serial numbers, not to have 2 cameras with same serial number. M3s until approx 950xxx had as well serial engraved inside, under the plate with film loading instructions. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 2 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/319447-leica-m3-serial-number-engraving/?do=findComment&comment=4172070'>More sharing options...
derleicaman Posted April 1, 2021 Share #8 Posted April 1, 2021 One thing to take into account is the machine used to make the engravings for model number and serial number for Leica top covers utilizes what is known as a pantograph engraving machine. With it, a stylus is traced in what I would describe as a negative type face. These type faces are about 2 inches high, and held by a clamp in the machine. This is very similar to the way type face was originally set in a printing press years ago. The pantograph reduces the font size of the typeface to the size required for the top plate. An electric engraving tool does the actual engraving. The top plate or other part to be engraved is held in place by a clamp in another part of the machine, as the electric engraving tool on the other end of the pantograph parallelogram does the actual engraving. This is never done free-hand, and explains why with the proper type face master, the engraving is very consistent. I do believe that the degree of size reduction in the pantograph is adjustable. That is most likely why we are seeing the size variation from the norm here. If the pantograph was not set up properly with the correct size reduction, the final engraving would not be the correct size. I have seen this device in the shop of a well-known Leica technician in Germany, but it was not in operation during my visit. I hope you can understand my explanation of this unique device here. This is not the exact machine, but hopefully it will help understand how this machine works! 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmw760 Posted April 1, 2021 Author Share #9 Posted April 1, 2021 awesome information. Thanks! Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmw760 Posted April 1, 2021 Author Share #10 Posted April 1, 2021 3 hours ago, jerzy said: in the past, whenever replacement top cover was ordered with Leitz the original had to be sent to them. It was returned then with serial number destroyed together with new top cover engraved. This was to keep track about serial numbers, not to have 2 cameras with same serial number. M3s until approx 950xxx had as well serial engraved inside, under the plate with film loading instructions. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! the serial number inside matches the top plate. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pgk Posted April 1, 2021 Share #11 Posted April 1, 2021 56 minutes ago, derleicaman said: One thing to take into account is the machine used to make the engravings ..... Coincidently, one of the makers of such engraving machines was Taylor, Taylor & Hobson - of Leitz Xenon fame! 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
derleicaman Posted April 1, 2021 Share #12 Posted April 1, 2021 Here's a Youtube video showing the pantograph engraver in action. Helps to better understand than my description above. https://duckduckgo.com/?t=ffab&q=pantograph+engraving+machine+in+operation&atb=v187-1&iax=videos&ia=videos&iai=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3Dy4E8j0uyK5M 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
romualdo Posted April 3, 2021 Share #13 Posted April 3, 2021 On 4/2/2021 at 8:12 AM, derleicaman said: Here's a Youtube video showing the pantograph engraver in action. Helps to better understand than my description above. https://duckduckgo.com/?t=ffab&q=pantograph+engraving+machine+in+operation&atb=v187-1&iax=videos&ia=videos&iai=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3Dy4E8j0uyK5M that was really worth the 9 minute watch - brought back memories of using the Spirograph as a child in the 60s Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
derleicaman Posted April 3, 2021 Share #14 Posted April 3, 2021 I used the fast forward a bit, but it did show pretty well how the pantograph works 🙂 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerzy Posted April 3, 2021 Share #15 Posted April 3, 2021 Am 31.3.2021 um 21:10 schrieb alan mcfall: How is this for a "close" serial number of mine, 709229 Alan, rewind knob on your x229 - does it have one dot as well like it is on x730? Just out of curiosity, for these early M3s one dot and slid are both valid, while dot is more rare Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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