SL2-S Moire Issues

[Corky]

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Hi, 

Have any SL2-S users had issues with moire on fabrics? I've just started using mine on some interiors work and it's subtle but definitely there when zoomed in. It really took me by surprise, it's been years since I had a moire issue on a camera. Shame, I love the camera but this is going to cause issues.

Just wondering if anybody else had similar experience so far.

Thanks

[frame-it]

ive seen some only with my APO Summicron M..but it takes 2 min to remove/reduce it in lightroom

[LD_50]

You’ll have moire with any camera that has high resolution lenses mounted and no low pass filter. The higher the resolution the sensor, the less likely you’ll see it.

[frame-it]

1 hour ago, LD_50 said:

You’ll have moire with any camera that has high resolution lenses mounted and no low pass filter. The higher the resolution the sensor, the less likely you’ll see it.

i see it with the same 90 APO summicron M on my GFX50R..if ive had plenty of coffee and nailed focus

[Photoworks]

Lightroom and Capture one have Moire reduction tools. Not so simple in video, I think somebody suggested to shoot 5k since it is full pixel readout.

In interior and fashion you get it sporadicly , often it is caused by cheap synthetic fabric. Sometime just moving a little will avoid it.

I take a moire any day over a lowpass filter on the sensor. 

[Corky]

Thanks all. I may try SL2 to see if high res helps. I'd forgotten all about moire was after 4 years with GFX 50s.

[LocalHero1953]

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Yes - it's never worried me - easy to remove with a local adjustment brush

[Stuart Richardson]

LD_50 has it...if the lens outresolves the sensor and there is no low pass filter, then you will get moire. High resolution sensors tend to show it less because it is harder for the lenses to outresolve them, but it will still show up. But you also need to have the right texture...so a higher resolution sensor will also only show moire on a comparatively smaller repeating texture...so it is basically always going to happen, but how and when will vary. Another way around it is to just stop down enough to where diffraction softens the lens slightly, then it will disappear.

[Slender]

On 3/26/2021 at 4:59 PM, Photoworks said:

Lightroom and Capture one have Moire reduction tools. Not so simple in video, I think somebody suggested to shoot 5k since it is full pixel readout.

That was me.... but not exactly what I said: The 5k pixel-to-pixel gets rid of alliasing caused by the downscalling of the images in video (from 8K to 4k in FF... and 6K to 4K in APS-C with SL2)... supposedely in video the problem of aliasing should be lesser with a smaller sensor to down/oversample from)... and non-existant with pixel-to-pixel readout.

Allasing in video has no colouring to it and is caused by image processing done by the camera to downscale the image. You can cause it yourself in post even with footage shot with OLPF sensors if you downscale/display images not properly.... same as if you zoom in and out of an architecture photo with lots of repetitive patterns, you can see aliasing on your screen if the maginification of those details matches the resolution of your screen.

If there is less downscaling (APS-C 4KDCI) or none (5K pixel-to-pixel), the problem fades.... which leaves us with:

......Moire. Moire has weird purple/green colors due to diffracting light particules hitting and splitting at the pixel-well edges, when a texture matches closely that sensor pattern: fine and linear fabrics, tissues... repetitive geometrical patterns like fences or bricks at long distances...etc.

One way to get rid of alliasing or moire in video is to make an unsharp mask... its bandaid but it can work.. or play with desaturation for moire... you can see a few people experimenting with that on youtube.

Click to zoom on this image and it may show up (or not) on your screen when looking at the curved building on the right... We nick-name it the Walkie-Talkie in London . Its discreet on a still-grab but quite obvious if the camera moves during video.

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Edited March 28, 2021 by Slender

[Jürgen]

Moire is the result of the outstanding SL lenses in combination with a low resolution 24 MP sensor. That's it 😀

[SonomaBear]

I shoot 24meg and remove mouire in post. This frees up drive space while helping my wallet. I’m ordering the SL2-S instead of SL2

[adan]

On 3/28/2021 at 7:40 AM, Stuart Richardson said:

LD_50 has it...if the lens outresolves the sensor and there is no low pass filter, then you will get moire. High resolution sensors tend to show it less because it is harder for the lenses to outresolve them, but it will still show up. But you also need to have the right texture...so a higher resolution sensor will also only show moire on a comparatively smaller repeating texture...so it is basically always going to happen, but how and when will vary. Another way around it is to just stop down enough to where diffraction softens the lens slightly, then it will disappear.

Yes.

Moiré is the one place where the term "lens outresolves the sensor" is appropriate and accurate.

In all other cases, a better sensor will degrade any lens's performance less, and a better lens will degrade any sensor's performance less.

System performance = lens performance times sensor performance. Both are "weakest links," since a sensor or lens with an MTF of 100% or higher is impossible.

[Chaemono]

The Sony Planar FE 50mm f/1.4 at f/2.8 outresolves the α7 III and the camera will, therefore, produce moiré in pictures with fabrics.

[SrMi]

21 hours ago, Chaemono said:

The Sony Planar FE 50mm f/1.4 at f/2.8 outresolves the α7 III and the camera will, therefore, produce moiré in pictures with fabrics.

Doesn't a7 III include an AA filter?

[Chaemono]

vor einer Stunde schrieb SrMi:

Doesn't a7 III include an AA filter?

No, it apparently doesn’t. Sony never specifies that, though. Here is one source: https://www.kenrockwell.com/sony/a7-iii.htm

Take look at the Siemens star here: https://blog.kasson.com/the-last-word/camera-resolution-and-4k-viewing-a7s-a7iii-a7riii-a7riv/

My test here: https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-xjDrXB/
 

[SrMi]

5 hours ago, Chaemono said:

 

No, it apparently doesn’t. Sony never specifies that, though. Here is one source: https://www.kenrockwell.com/sony/a7-iii.htm

Take look at the Siemens star here: https://blog.kasson.com/the-last-word/camera-resolution-and-4k-viewing-a7s-a7iii-a7riii-a7riv/

My test here: https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-xjDrXB/
 

Jim Kasson's test show that a7III has an AA filter, weaker in one direction than in other.

DPR studio scene shows lack of moire where Leica SL (no AA filter) shows light moire and a sharper image: DPR Studio Scene.

Mark Galer writes that Sony a7III has an AA filter. He is a more dependable source of Sony knowledge than Ken Rockwell.

I conclude that a7III has a (weak) AA filter

[Chaemono]

vor 7 Stunden schrieb SrMi:

Jim Kasson's test show that a7III has an AA filter, weaker in one direction than in other.

DPR studio scene shows lack of moire where Leica SL (no AA filter) shows light moire and a sharper image: DPR Studio Scene.

Mark Galer writes that Sony a7III has an AA filter. He is a more dependable source of Sony knowledge than Ken Rockwell.

I conclude that a7III has a (weak) AA filter

De facto the result is the same. The α7 III with a sharp lens shows moiré on cheap synthetic fabrics, too.

[mschuette]

Today I did a fashion shoot withe my SL2-S and discovered a lot of moire pattern on the fabrics. I was able to remove it on the trousers with the LR adjustment brush. But it did not work on the sweater.

Any ideas to remove it with LR properly? And any ideas to avoid it in future?

Thanks!

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Edited August 17, 2021 by mschuette

[jrp]

Photoshop and convert to Lab, and then blur the appropriate channel(s) and then back to RGB. 

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[hansvons]

15 hours ago, mschuette said:

And any ideas to avoid it in future?

Try to shoot various sizes/distances of your subject if you have reasons to believe that your shot may be moiré-prone. Moiré is depending on the frequency of the camera's sensor and the patterns in your picture. If they match, moiré is immanent, which happens relatively rarely in real life. With stepping back or closing in, you are magnifying or shrinking the patterns in question, and the frequencies are no match anymore. 

Slender gives a good explanation on the subject on post #9.