Film M cameras w/ single 35mm frame line

[Dennis]

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2 hours ago, a.noctilux said:

I see only M2 which at first was designed to use 35mm lens without the goggles of M3 area.

And how is the experience to shoot with goggles? Do you loose quality of vision? Is it always better viewing through an OVF w/ goggles? No idea.

.

Anyway, If the film camera doesn't have single (but two) frame lines, I could always ask, in the right place, to mask the "extra" frame line. Any idea of how much this could cost? I mean a regular CLA for an old film camera plus the masking. 

[logan2z]

1 hour ago, Dennis said:

Is there a name or terminology to call the two rewind types?  Button and lever rewind?

I think there is some confusion about the term 'rewind' here.  Button rewind refers to the button on the front of the camera body that disengages the film transport so that the film can be rewound with the rewind knob.  Here's a photo of a button rewind M2 from Tamarkin's web site that might make it more clear.  See the button to the left of the 'R':

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The 'lever' rewind can be seen on the M2 below and is rotated towards the 'R' in order to disengage the film from the transport:

[earleygallery]

Just get a decent M2, it is the perfect solution for you having single framelines for 35mm only, no meter, etc.

The .72 viewfinder works well because you have the luxury of free space around the 35mm frames so you can see around what you're actually framing.

You will have to pay signifcantly more to find a black paint M2 but if it's really a problem for you just cover the chrome with black tape!

[Ko.Fe.]

I like new cameras for same reason. I often thinking of selling all cameras I got second hand, but even after this I won't be able to get M-A. I had NIB Bessa R2M, but never bond to it. Prices of used film M went insane recently. So, M4-2 I got for under 600 USD is the keeper. I added label with my email at inner part of bottom plate and somehow it holds me from selling it as well. Not all of the cameras I have are labeled this way...

I had 35 3.5 with goggles. No difference from regular lens at all. As long as goggles are in-tact and not fogged....

The only difference is in shifting of gravity balance center. I have to add grip to compensate it.

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Edited March 23, 2021 by Ko.Fe.

[ktmrider2]

I think Logan2Z is correct and you are confusing button/lever rewind with the rewind knob found on the M2/M3/MP/MA with the canted rewind found on the M4/M6/M6TTL and M7.  The M4 was the first film M with the canted rewind knob.  It has a small handle which is unfolded for use to rewind the film and is very similar in shape to those found on most other 35 film cameras (think Nikon FM but canted).  

The straight knob was introduced on the M3 and was also used on the M2.  It was reintroduced by Leica on the MP and MA(I think primarily for nostalgia).  However, some argue that the canted rewind knob is easier to damage while the straight rewind knob is stronger.  Everyone will also agree that the canted rewind is much faster.  Since I have both an M2 (straight knob) and M4 (canted) one could say I have the best of both systems.  Honestly, I don't really have a preference.

And one other feature which makes the M2 unique is the film counter.  Unlike every other M film camera made, the M2 has a manual film counter.  You load the film and replace the back and set the film counter to minus 2 (maybe 38 on the wheel) then advance the film two exposures to get rid of the leader.  One more quick wind and you are at number 1 and ready to shoot.  It takes longer to read the technique then to do.

[Dennis]

3 hours ago, logan2z said:

I Think there is some confusion about the term 'rewind' here. 

 

1 hour ago, ktmrider2 said:

you are confusing button/lever rewind with the rewind knob found on the M2/M3/MP/MA with the canted rewind found on the M4/M6/M6TTL and M7.

You are right, so sorry. English is not my first language and never used before this terminology, well in english 🙂

I can't edit my first posts, but you understood. In the wishes (I would love to) list, there is the canted rewind. Now I know how to call it. Thank you!!!!

2 hours ago, earleygallery said:

Just get a decent M2, it is the perfect solution for you having single framelines for 35mm only, no meter, etc.

The .72 viewfinder works well because you have the luxury of free space around the 35mm frames so you can see around what you're actually framing.

You will have to pay signifcantly more to find a black paint M2 but if it's really a problem for you just cover the chrome with black tape!

Thank you!  Significantly more? Auch. Well, it's not mandatory, it's just an aestethic choice. My M10 is a black version. I like it a lot. More discrete (IMHO), low profile, different. No the classical RF. The M2's on sale in the used market, there are all from which period? I mean, any M2 has at least X years ... 🤷‍♂️

2 hours ago, Ko.Fe. said:

So, M4-2 I got for under 600 USD is the keeper.

Oh yeah, I bet!

2 hours ago, Ko.Fe. said:

I had 35 3.5 with goggles. No difference from regular lens at all. As long as goggles are in-tact and not fogged....

Understood. But to focus is exactly clear and easy as it is in an M10 for example, or not that match? I'm sure the lens performance is the same, but how clear is the vision through the goggled OVF?

1 hour ago, ktmrider2 said:

The straight knob was introduced on the M3 and was also used on the M2.  It was reintroduced by Leica on the MP and MA(I think primarily for nostalgia).  However, some argue that the canted rewind knob is easier to damage while the straight rewind knob is stronger.  Everyone will also agree that the canted rewind is much faster.  Since I have both an M2 (straight knob) and M4 (canted) one could say I have the best of both systems.  Honestly, I don't really have a preference.

Is there any M film camera, with single 35mm frame lines, and a canted rewind? It looks like is not  

.

Sometimes I also think that an M-A, besides the high price (that maybe it's too much), it's also could be a long term investment. Because this camera is going to last surely a lifetime (hopefully) for sue, first. Then maybe value.

[Michael Geschlecht]

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Hello Dennis,

Don't worry. Your English is fine.

There is an "M" film camera with a full 35mm frame in the range/viewfinder window that does have a rewind crank It is an M5.

If you are a 35mm lens user what appears as a 135mm frame in other "M" cameras is actually a semi-spot meter indicator in an M5.

Yes, it does also indicate the frame for a 135mm lens without "goggles".

But for a 35mm lens user it indicates the circumference of a circle that is circling the 135mm frame and just touching the 4 frame corners.

This circle indicates the angle of coverage of the meter when using a 35mm lens.

And there is a crank similar to the M6 crank for rewinding film. Instead of being at an angle on top: It is on the bottom of the baseplate and folds flat. 

The M5 is the last of the early version "M" cameras: M3, M2, M1, MD, MDa, M4, M5 chronologically. With a few exceptions or/& additions here and there.

Best Regards,

Michael

[ktmrider2]

The M5 is definitely worth a look.  It is probably the best shooter of all the M film bodies.  Leica spent over ten years developing it after the introduction of the M3.  M5's come in both silver chrome and black chrome.  It is a bit larger than the traditional M film body but it has perhaps the best meter ever put in a Leica camera.  The downside is that the M5 uses technology from the late 1960's so the body had to be bigger then the M2/M4/M6 to house the meter and the moving meter arm makes it a pain in the ass to work on.  Some Leica technicians will not work on them and spare parts are starting to get scarce.  You could get a good one for under $1200 I think but it does not meet your criteria of having a single frame line in the viewfinder.  Only the M2 does that unless you pay to have the viewfinder frames modified.

However, if you do not want a meter then stick with the M2.  I purchased my first film M in 1974 and have owned most of them.  As I said earlier the M2 is one of my two favorites. And the one I have bought three or four times.  You could buy a chrome body and have it repainted but am not sure how long that takes or the cost.  Black tape over the chrome may be the cheapest and easiest solution.

I think MA's are about $5200 and I have heard that there will be a price increase 1 April.  You have seen what a black chrome M2 goes for.  You can find a chrome body for $1300 and up.  It might need a CLA which will cost between $200-300.  So for about $1500 you will have a film M which will last about twenty years before needing another CLA.  There are people on this forum who are shooting with Leica M film cameras they purchased in the 1960's.  My M2 is from 1958 (early M2's had the button rewind).  Newer M2's had the lever rewind and usually a self timer was added as well.  The M2 was made between 1957 and 1968.  I prefer the look of the button rewind body.  You could shoot the M2 and if you don't like it, you can sell it for what you paid for it.  Or use it for awhile and then decide to have it painted black (if you could stand to be without it for six months).  

And I purchased a Leica 3f last September which was made in 1952 (year of my birth).  It has been CLA'ed along with the collapsible 50 Summicron and I am having a lot of fun with a 68 year old camera.  Want to buy a digital Leica?  I am not using it much as I have gone back almost entirely to film.

By the way, I lived in El Paso, Texas for 22 years and loved it.  I took several motorcycle trips from El Paso down to Copper Canyon and also worked in the US Embassy in Mexico City.   Am presently in Anchorage, Alaska and will probably be moving here.  Have my M4 loaded with color and M2 with black and white.  I have been shooting outside at minus 10 centigrade and below and both the M2 and M4 are doing fine.  Not too bad for a 62 year old camera (M2) and a 45 year old camera (M4).  Batteries don't die because there isn't any in either camera.

Again, check out Tamarkin Camera (lots of good information on all Leica film models) and lots of videos on youtube about Leica film cameras.

Edited March 24, 2021 by ktmrider2

[Dennis]

47 minutes ago, ktmrider2 said:

The M5 is definitely worth a look.  It is probably the best shooter of all the M film bodies.  Leica spent over ten years developing it after the introduction of the M3.  M5's come in both silver chrome and black chrome.  It is a bit larger than the traditional M film body but it has perhaps the best meter ever put in a Leica camera.  The downside is that the M5 uses technology from the late 1960's so the body had to be bigger then the M2/M4/M6 to house the meter and the moving meter arm makes it a pain in the ass to work on.  Some Leica technicians will not work on them and spare parts are starting to get scarce.  You could get a good one for under $1200 I think but it does not meet your criteria of having a single frame line in the viewfinder.  Only the M2 does that unless you pay to have the viewfinder frames modified.

Thank you so much for the detailed feedback. I see. I didn't include the M5 in my first list because it's ugly haha. I really like classic RF aesthetics but the M5, doesn't match it at all. Then, after the M2 single frame lines as my only option, if I have 35+135 frame lines, then maybe M4's or M6 or even M7 are options. If I can easily mask the frame lines, any camera could work.

47 minutes ago, ktmrider2 said:

Batteries don't die because there isn't any in either camera.

Which are the cameras with light meter built, that are fully working without batteries? I mean, Can I have for example an M6 with single frame lines (because I masked it), and use it at any SS w/o batteries? Any limitation? So far, the M2 black paint it looks like my best option: single frame lines, complete mechanic, solid great camera.

 

 

Edited March 24, 2021 by Dennis

[logan2z]

28 minutes ago, Dennis said:

Which are the cameras with light meter built, that are fully working without batteries? I mean, Can I have for example an M6 with single frame lines (because I masked it), and use it at any SS w/o batteries? Any limitation? 

The M6 (and MP) are fully mechanical cameras, aside from the light meter.  Pull the battery out and the only thing that stops working is the meter.  The shutter will continue to fire at all speeds.

Edited March 24, 2021 by logan2z

[Simone_DF]

10 hours ago, Dennis said:

I want a Leica, because I love its RF system. And to be able to use the same lenses of my M10, and have almost the same exactly modus operandi

 

The Bessa has a Leica M mount, you can use your lenses 😉

[Mute-on]

An M2 with a 35mm lens is Leica film M nirvana. 

There, I said it.  Again.

 

[TheBestSLIsALeicaflex]

18 hours ago, ktmrider2 said:

M2 is only model with single 35 frame line.  The M4 and all subsequent models have the 35 paired with the 135.  Many users of the 35 rate the M2 as their favorite Leica for this reason.  I do but also love the original M4 as the 135 frame is almost small enough to be ignored.

A la carte program from Leica is no longer an option.  Many Leica repair technicians like DAG, Sherry or YeYe can mask unwanted frame lines.  For my money, just get a nice M2 and you will have the best camera Leica ever designed and save thousands over the cost of an MA which is essentially an M2 with upgraded film loading (M4 on), paired frame lines (M4-2 on), and nostalgic rewind knob from either M2 or M3 style camera.  

By the way, the M2 had the first .72 magnification viewfinder which became the standard for all subsequent Leica cameras unless rare .85 or .58(?) on a few M6 and following models.  Even though the M2 only has 35/50/90 frame lines (each comes up individually) you can use the whole viewfinder for 28mm and there are a lot of 135 Elmarits which incorporate a magnifier so you can use the 90 if the 135 is mounted.

Classic Connection has a black painted M2 for $1800 (I think) on their website as we speak.

The M2's frame lines for 35 and 50 are generally more accurate than more recent M's, at least at the distances that most use a rangefinder.  

[pippy]

10 hours ago, Dennis said:

...Significantly more? Auch. Well, it's not mandatory, it's just an aestethic choice. My M10 is a black version. I like it a lot. More discrete (IMHO), low profile, different...

Black Paint M2 bodies were produced in tiny numbers (relatively speaking) which makes them 'collectible' and therefore far more expensive to acquire but there are a gerat many re-paints out there such as the body you've already looked at for $1,799.

As far as covering-up a chrome body goes - and just for a laugh - I can confirm that it can work very well but bear in mind that, depending on what species of tape you use there may be complications; here's a snap of yours truly with my taped-up M2 c/w 35mm Summaron + Yellow filter snapped sometime back in the late '80s. When, twenty-odd years later, I finally decided to remove the (electrician's electrical insulation) tape it had been on so long that the adhesive had turned to a cement-like substance and was an absolute bugger to remove...

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[Dennis]

9 hours ago, logan2z said:

The M6 (and MP) are fully mechanical cameras, aside from the light meter.  Pull the battery out and the only thing that stops working is the meter.  The shutter will continue to fire at all speeds.

Good to know. So, if I want a fully mechanical camera, able to shoot at all speed (light meter or not), my only options are: M2 - M6 - M-P - M-A .. Am I right?

6 hours ago, Mute-on said:

There, I said it.  Again. An M2 with a 35mm lens is Leica film M nirvana. 

Yes, you said it 😆. And I took a note 🙂

3 hours ago, TheBestSLIsALeicaflex said:

The M2's frame lines for 35 and 50 are generally more accurate than more recent M's,

This is interesting.

Wow, 20 years, it's a lot. Glad to see I'm not the only one wanting a black M2 😏

 

 

 

 

[logan2z]

46 minutes ago, Dennis said:

Good to know. So, if I want a fully mechanical camera, able to shoot at all speed (light meter or not), my only options are: M2 - M6 - M-P - M-A .. Am I right?

Just to clarify, the M6 and the MP (no '-') are the only ones in that list that contain a meter.  Removing the battery from those cameras only disables the meter, the shutter will fire at all speeds.

[Dennis]

9 minutes ago, logan2z said:

Just to clarify, the M6 and the MP (no '-') are the only ones in that list that contain a meter.  Removing the battery from those cameras only disables the meter, the shutter will fire at all speeds.

Understood. So are there more fully mechanical cameras with no light meter besides the M2 an M-A? Because for the ones they have it, taking the battery off allow me to use all SS.

My point is that, I don't really care if the camera has or not light meter, because I won't use it. But If I can shoot at all SS with no battery, I think it's the same. For logic, it's better without light meter if I don't use it, right? But if doesn't make the camera more sensitive, delicate or whatever, I prefer without it. If it doesn't change nothing but the ability to have a suggested exposure, I'm fine.

  

Edited March 24, 2021 by Dennis

[logan2z]

7 minutes ago, Dennis said:

So are there more fully mechanical cameras with no light meter besides the M2 an M-A?

The M3, M4, M4-2, M4-P also have no meter and are fully mechanical.

Edited March 24, 2021 by logan2z

[Dennis]

2 minutes ago, logan2z said:

The M3, M4, M4-2, M4-P also have no meter and are fully mechanical.

Thank you so much.

So the fully mechanical options are: M2, M3, M4, M4-2, M4-P, M-A

Cameras with light meter but working at all SS w/o battery are: M6, M-P

 

With single 35mm frame lines, only M2

If I mask it, except the M3 (that has not 35mm frame lines), all can be an option ... 🤔

 

 

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[pgk]

My only film Leica is an M4 which is well worth your while looking at. It has a 35mm frame, angled rewind and some like myself, think that it is the epitomy of the M film camera series. Its fully mechanical, has the black tipped flip our film winder, 4 frame lines (any can be masked off by a technician), angled rewind. For less than the price of a current film camera from Leica you should/may be able to find a black paint version which is IMO one of the nicest cameras made by Leica - hence why it remains my (little used) only film M camera. There is also the KE-7A version but its pricey (https://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-wiki.en/index.php/M4).