Will I regret returning my 50 Summicron-M (non-APO)?

[jaapv]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

6 hours ago, Alberti said:

It is a hard advice to build your own profile; WHO CAN DO THAT?

I do recognize some of the problems stated: my 50-cron V is different from my previous version III. 
And I have experienced that the lens was marvelous on the M8 but less so on the M240. For me, the pleasure factor dropped. [For that reason I too experimented with old Japanese. Lenses for instance.]

In my opinion- that is, I can expect that the summicron profile made by either Leica (in-camera) or Lightroom has been tuned a bit. I read that the summicron supposedly has a high saturation. Maybe the ‘experts’ decided to tune them down a bit? 

That is about the simplest thing to do in postprocessing...

[Jeff S]

5 hours ago, Alberti said:

It is a hard advice to build your own profile; WHO CAN DO THAT?

 

Anybody who uses a digital camera and can import a picture. And, even without that, simple to move some sliders, make some presets or change default settings.  Or one can explore the many preset options provided by Adobe and others. Basic stuff.

Jeff

Edited March 15, 2021 by Jeff S

[hdmesa]

6 hours ago, Anbaric said:

With 30 seconds work in Photoshop, you can make the images from that Summicron twice as saturated as you get by default from any other lens. The choice of camera, in-camera menu settings and post-processing software and settings make much more difference than the relatively subtle differences in colour rendering between high quality modern lenses, and you have a great deal of control over processing parameters. More vivid colours are just a slider setting away, and if you need a consistent, reproducible boost you just need a different profile. But right now, you seem to be comparing between lenses on different cameras, so the question is moot. The coating on your filter is designed to reduce reflections from the surface of the glass it is directly applied to, and it works because its thickness is a fraction of the wavelength of visible light. It will have no beneficial effect on the properties of a lens separated from the filter by several millimetres of air. Your lens will never be better than it is without a filter, but filter coating is helpful because it can reduce the negative impact of the filter (e.g. uncoated filters significantly increase the risk of flare).

Of course I can just ham-fist the saturation slider. But how the colors look (fidelity/integrity/naturalness) when the saturation is pushed out to ~80% is not the same for every lens/camera combination. 

[hdmesa]

I've decided to keep the 50 Summicron-M for now. I'm going to work with the files in C1 until I find an aesthetic that works for me but that is different from the look of the Q Summilux images.

[hdmesa]

I did a casual hand-held (braced against the top of a fence) comparison this evening at sunset of the GFX 50R with the GF 63 against the M10-R and 50 Summicron M v5. The GFX with native GF lenses have some of the strongest color saturation and contrast of any system I've ever used, so I thought this would be good test for the M10-R/50 Cron combination.

I may have judged the 50 Summicron-M v5 too quickly as being flat or low in saturation. I didn't go over "27" on the C1 saturation slider for the M10-R. GFX was set at "4". These were the maximums I could set for both without the files losing contrast or looking fake. This is about accurate for how the scene appeared in real life.

I can say that definitely that the 50 Cron's subdued color is not as dramatic a difference as I thought it was, at least not for the v5 design. I'm guessing the poor air/light conditions here the last few days are responsible for the flat color I was seeing.

Same settings used for both cameras: ISO 100, 1/60 sec., f/5.6

White balance had to be matched by hand in C1. I had set both to daylight WB in camera, but the M10-R is very warm+green while the GFX was cooler+magenta. I added a very mild RGB s-curve to the M10-R file to help it match the gamma/contrast of the GFX file. I'm thinking Fujifilm bakes in an s-curve to the RAWs and Leica lets the file fall more naturally – just a guess based on no real evidence, though.

M10-R + 50-Summicron M (v5):

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

 

GFX 50R + GF 63:

[hdmesa]

Color aside, the resolving power of the M10-R and 50 Cron actually seem to surpass the GFX at the pixel level. Both files were left at the default C1 sharpening setting, but I did add lens correction sharpening of "100" to both files, which is a C1 setting that corrects sharpness more toward the corners based on the lens profile. The GFX file could not be sharpened further with the traditional sharpening panel due to aliasing that was already showing in the fence of the house on the ridge. The M10-R image actually shows higher resolving power with much less if any aliasing. Perhaps the GFX would have shown slightly more sharpness if I'd had it on a tripod, but I did use EFCS shutter, so shutter shock was minimal. 

 

The M10-R blew my mind for how well it did against the GFX 50R. I think the M10-R actually looks better. (Click on the image below twice, then once more to magnify to actual size – the inline previews on this forum are a little fuzzy).

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

[darylgo]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

25 minutes ago, hdmesa said:

The M10-R blew my mind for how well it did against the GFX 50R.

Leica also did this with the M9 back in 2009, my comparison with a Contax 645 and P30+ back had the Leica pixels far surpassing the Phase One back.  

[otto.f]

3 hours ago, hdmesa said:

I can say that definitely that the 50 Cron's subdued color is not as dramatic a difference as I thought it was, at least not for the v5 design.

Yes, my experience is that the v4 is less vivid than the v5

[Lelmer]

7 hours ago, hdmesa said:

I've decided to keep the 50 Summicron-M for now. I'm going to work with the files in C1 until I find an aesthetic that works for me but that is different from the look of the Q Summilux images.

Good decision, it's an excellent lens

[colonel]

Lenses do have different signatures. Some can have yellow, blue or other colour balances. Contrast can be different. Curved sides have a different effect, especially with a sharp centre. There are micro flare differences, all sorts of aberrations. Bokeh of course can be sharply different. Even modern lenses render in an entirely different way. And of course the sensor plays a big part. No lens on the M8 or M9 with the CCD sensor looks the same as with other sensors.

The 50 cron is know for super sharp and lower contrast (although in its time it was considered high contrast). This combination is quite unusual today. 

Low contrast can look more moody and ethereal for people shots. I am somewhat sad when I see all the photos today where the contrast has been mercilessly cranked up.

High contrast is often used to make a photo look sharper. It's an optical illusion and a blunt tool. Sharp lenses with lower contrast are rare but very special.

Personally, lower contrast is better for editing as you have more bandwidth. Photos with high contrast lenses tend to pop more out of the box but have less pp capacity before they degrade.

Flare is also a bit killer of contrast. I was look at the CV 50mm f1.5 ii SC precisely to obtain a lower contrast but better corrected lens. Although it has a flare issue due to the coatings.

If you like it or not it's up to you. 

I would suggest you play with your new 50mm before you sell the cron, just to have that comparison. 

Edited March 16, 2021 by colonel

[lct]

9 hours ago, otto.f said:

Yes, my experience is that the v4 is less vivid than the v5

Different experience here. I find my German made v4 similar if not identical to v5 and the Canada made v4 has a bit more flare due to different coatings i suspect but i'm not sure about that. Neither can explain the OP's feeling though IMHO. YMMV.

[hdmesa]

1 hour ago, lct said:

...Neither can explain the OP's feeling though IMHO. YMMV.

Shooting the v5 side-by-side with the CV 35 1.2 III and seeing the more saturated colors with the CV is what pushed me into making this post. But the flat color I was seeing with the v5 prior to that was probably just the poor outdoor light conditions we've had in my area lately. My concern was if I was going to have to push the v5 up to +80 or so saturation in post just to match my other lenses, that was going to bother me, since pushing saturation that far often comes with downsides like lower contrast and an unnatural look to the color.

The actual difference for the 50 Summicron-M v5 against both CV 35 1.2 III and GF 63 (GFX) seems to be about 20 points on the saturation slider in Capture One, which is reasonable. But the Cron files also have more detail in the deep shadows (could also be the M10-R sensor at work there), and once adjusted to match the GFX, they actually produced the superior result, IMO.

Edited March 16, 2021 by hdmesa

[lct]

34 minutes ago, hdmesa said:

Shooting the v5 side-by-side with the CV 35 1.2 III and seeing the more saturated colors with the CV is what pushed me into making this post. But the flat color I was seeing with the v5 prior to that was probably just the poor outdoor light conditions we've had in my area lately. My concern was if I was going to have to push the v5 up to +80 or so saturation in post just to match my other lenses, that was going to bother me, since pushing saturation that far often comes with downsides like lower contrast and an unnatural look to the color.

The actual difference for the 50 Summicron-M v5 against both CV 35 1.2 III and GF 63 (GFX) seems to be about 20 points on the saturation slider in Capture One, which is reasonable. But the Cron files also have more detail in the deep shadows (could also be the M10-R sensor at work there), and once adjusted to match the GFX, they actually produced the superior result, IMO.

I have no experience with those CV and Fuji lenses but i was reacting to your statement that "the color signature is, well, I guess subdued or muted" about the Summicron 50/2 v5. I just wanted to suggest that such a feeling cannot be due to the lens per se. I mean in my 30+ years experience with 50mm Leica lenses but i don't shoot all day long by far .

[hdmesa]

1 hour ago, lct said:

I have no experience with those CV and Fuji lenses but i was reacting to your statement that "the color signature is, well, I guess subdued or muted" about the Summicron 50/2 v5. I just wanted to suggest that such a feeling cannot be due to the lens per se. I mean in my 30+ years experience with 50mm Leica lenses but i don't shoot all day long by far .

Yes, I understand what you're saying. But you had said to someone else you had no idea where I would get such an idea, so I was trying to explain  

[mujk]

My only slight problem with the Cron 50 v5 is its tendency to flare in certain backlit situations. This seems to be more pronounced on the M10 than on older digital and film Ms. I currently dont have any other coated 50 to compare with, but e.g the non-APO Cron 35 ASPH is much more flare-resistant in the same situations.

Edited March 16, 2021 by mujk

[lct]

Just now, mujk said:

My only slight problem with the Cron 50 v5 is its tendency to flare in certain backlit situations. This seems to be more pronounced on the M10 than on older digital and film Ms. I currently dont have any other coated 50 to compare with, but e.g the Cron 35 ASPH is much more flare-resistant in the same situations.

Mainly when strong light sources are just outside the frame but it is a flaw of 50/2 v5 and v4 too. 50/1.4 v2, v3 and asph are less prone to flare but 35/2 asph is not immune from it TBH. I sometimes wonder if flare is not designed as a feature by Leica.

[hdmesa]

20 hours ago, mujk said:

My only slight problem with the Cron 50 v5 is its tendency to flare in certain backlit situations. This seems to be more pronounced on the M10 than on older digital and film Ms. I currently dont have any other coated 50 to compare with, but e.g the non-APO Cron 35 ASPH is much more flare-resistant in the same situations.

 

20 hours ago, lct said:

Mainly when strong light sources are just outside the frame but it is a flaw of 50/2 v5 and v4 too. 50/1.4 v2, v3 and asph are less prone to flare but 35/2 asph is not immune from it TBH. I sometimes wonder if flare is not designed as a feature by Leica.

 

I see the flare as part of its character rather than a flaw. When I want flare like this, my 50 Cron and Minolta 58 1.2 are the only ones I have that produce it. It might even be more useful for video (adapted to another body like the Leica SL/Canon R5/Nikon Z, etc.) since the flare changes shape in a very cool way as the camera moves.

M10-R + 50 Summicron-M:

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Edited March 17, 2021 by hdmesa

[lct]

36 minutes ago, hdmesa said:

I see the flare as part of its character rather than a flaw. When I want flare like this, my 50 Cron and Minolta 58 1.2 are the only ones I have that produce it. It might even be more useful for video (adapted to another body like the Leica SL/Canon R5/Nikon Z, etc.) since the flare changes shape in a very cool way as the camera moves.

Not a problem on stills in EVF mode either but in RF mode it can be another story. Matter of skills as always but mine are rather poor in that area i must say...

[hdmesa]

1 hour ago, lct said:

Not a problem on stills in EVF mode either but in RF mode it can be another story. Matter of skills as always but mine are rather poor in that area i must say...

Definitely a use-case for activating LV on the rear screen if you don't have the Visoflex handy – or at least using the 3 or 5 second image review and chimping if the situation allows.

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[lct]

3 hours ago, hdmesa said:

Definitely a use-case for activating LV on the rear screen if you don't have the Visoflex handy – or at least using the 3 or 5 second image review and chimping if the situation allows.

Yes or for using the 50/2 apo but i'd prefer less flare in a smaller package personally. Not sure if such a beast exists among 50/2 M lenses. The Konica 50/2 has a bit less veiling flare but the difference is not obvious.