ETA on the SL2-S firmware update?

[Simone_DF]

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5 hours ago, BernardC said:

Both of those involved trips to service centres, so they aren't just flipping a bit in the firmware.

So, on top of paying for a firmware upgrade, the user also has to pay international shipping and return, plus courier insurance. Wouldn't that be a deal breaker for whoever doesn't live near a service centre?

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[LD_50]

20 minutes ago, Simone_DF said:

It seems to me that Fuji is offering rapid firmware updates, with more improvements offered and more communication regarding future improvements, for free. Why should I pay Leica? It's up to Leica to up their game in a competitive market, not to the end user.  

You shouldn’t pay Leica for anything you deem Fuji is doing better. 

[frame-it]

3 hours ago, hansvons said:

 

In video postproduction land, there is an application called Flame, which belongs to Autodesk.

 

that's the software ive been using since 1994 you can now rent it monthly or yearly, but there is still the option for a permanent perpetual license...and that comes with a yearly support fee after the 1st year of purchase

[beewee]

I think there are different reasons for updates and depending on the reason/type, it may or may not justify even the consideration of a pay-to-enable scenario:

• Bug fixes - there should never be a fee for this
• Existing features - if anyone company (I’m looking at you Readdle and your PDF Expert app) bricks existing functionality included in previously purchased perpetual licenses and switches to a subscription/freemium business model where things that use to work no longer do, I will drop them in an instant and never do business with them again. That’s a complete breach of trust
• Core functions/features - this to me is a non-starter. The premium/subscription model for the FOTOS app to download photos was frankly stupid. Downloading photos should be a core functionality of a digital camera and to add a monetary barrier to such feature doesn’t actually add value to the system. It de-values the camera in adding unnecessary friction to the user experience. If Leica is going to go down this route, they may as well add a pay-to-unlock aperture priority, and shutter priority modes. It sounds ridiculous - and it is - but that’s analogous to having a subscription/premium model to enable core functionality
• Enabling new capability - this is something that could potentially justify it but it needs to be something worth paying for and actually provide a value-add to the end user. Some may argue video features but I think this is dependent on the target market. It would make sense to have a pay-to-unlock video feature like 4k ProResRaw for a camera marketed as primarily a photography camera that happen to have video. But to use a pay-to-unlock video features like 4k ProResRaw for a camera that is marketed as a video camera or hybrid camera seems like a cash grab because that’s getting much closer to core functionality.

In short, any additional premium paid for a feature needs the following:

• The feature should never be something remotely close to being considered core functionality
• The feature should not be one that the vast majority of target customers would want to use because this means the feature should have been built into the product’s original price
• The feature should only be needed by a minority of target customers that have unique needs beyond the core base customer of a given product
• The feature should work like magic for their intended target audience and be well polished, bug free, value-add to the end user, and provide a return on investment to the end user
• Anything that is outside of the above points would just generate bad press and customer friction

Edited March 26, 2021 by beewee

[geotrupede]

1 hour ago, beewee said:

I think there are different reasons for updates ...

...in short, any additional premium paid for a feature needs the following:

• The feature should never be something remotely close to being considered core functionality
• The feature should not be one that the vast majority of target customers would want to use because this means the feature should have been built into the product’s original price
• The feature should only be needed by a minority of target customers that have unique needs beyond the core base customer of a given product
• The feature should work like magic for their intended target audience and be well polished, bug free, value-add to the end user, and provide a return on investment to the end user
• Anything that is outside of the above points would just generate bad press and customer friction

What a stellar answer and analysis!

Totally agree!

I would add that because of this, the pool of paid update users would be so little that there is not commercial incentive to even try. Leica users aren't many so either these upgrades cost a lot or there will be no way to support (=pay for) their development. Which implies little time to develop and most likely little functionality. Let's stick to the bug correction and the way of kaizen.

G.

[Simone_DF]

9 hours ago, LD_50 said:

You shouldn’t pay Leica for anything you deem Fuji is doing better. 

Yup. I have no problem with that, and it may happen in the next couple of months. 

I'm just waiting for Leica's vaporware firmware update to see if they fixed their terrible AF and then decide between SL, GFX or Canon R5.

[SJH]

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When we’re looking at firmware upgrades I think it’s worthwhile mentioning the new Sigma fp L that now has PDAF and the 61mb Sony Sensor, it just shows you what you could do with the SL2-S’s 24mp Sony equivalent. 

[hansvons]

9 hours ago, frame-it said:

that's the software ive been using since 1994 you can now rent it monthly or yearly, but there is still the option for a permanent perpetual license...and that comes with a yearly support fee after the 1st year of purchase

Hi frame-it, just wanted to say thank your for your photos on the SL2-S pictures thread. Some weird, some inspiring - never predictable or boring - cool! Fun to read that there's a fellow Flame artist on this forum (albeit I wouldn't call myself a Flame artist). But the connection from Flame to Leica isn't far-fetched.

The support fee wasn't mandatory in terms of the availability of the software. But it was mandatory in terms of keeping it up to date. Skipping the support fee for some years killed your eligibility. Thus, somewhat an extortion. I didn't like it and it made me angry. The subscription model much more reflects the idea of getting what you pay.

[Slender]

It's cool to see video veterans being so enthusiats about the SL2(s). I am an AC by formation but ended up doing more still photography as a pro... still have a very close connection with the industry on set.

However, I am a bit wary-feeling about Leica imposing a subscribtion model... I still think the comparison to a behemoth like Blackmagic or Autodesk doesn't hold true for a mom and pop shop like Leica... for firmware development. Unless its earth-shatering things like Pro-Res Integration or something like this, I don't see how they could justify making people pay for what is standard on Panasonic/Sigma... Especially the aftermarket and ergonomics are nowhere near what you can do with an S1H let alone a black magic or even a Sony FX3.

The Leica survey is all "excited" about the perspective correction thing... I am sorry what? My lightroom does it no problems.... I feel they want to test how their "older" ( and richer and perhaps less software retouching litterate... or gold-crocodile collectors) customer base is impressed by that, and if there is more to suck from that.

But pay for promised SL2 platform features (it took ages for linear focussing.... T stop is still fiction) at this rythm.... ok Covid is perhaps not making things easier but.... every half a year or so in between.... no ETA, no clarification on what the camera actually does - Is it oversampling, downsampling, pixel-binning, line skipping... a mixture of both???? Don't Pro want answers and clarifications to this?

[hansvons]

6 minutes ago, Slender said:

Don't Pro want answers and clarifications to this?

Yes, they do, at least I do. Leica gave me one central answer, which made me buy the SL2-S: colour (and the L-mount, which allows using Leica lenses natively). Skin tones, sky blue, greens are rendered more pleasing from my European perspective than anything I have shot with Japanese products. That, of course, does not make Japanese colour engineering inferior; it just doesn't meet my expectations on colour reproduction. 

Leica never made digital film cameras. Until recently, they had no stakes in that market nor any experience. As it seems, this is changing now. The SL2 was never meant as a tool for filmmakers, albeit it does have decent capabilities, which came somewhat automatically with the Panasonic collaboration. The SL line was intended to meet professional photographers and pro-like enthusiasts needs (much like any other top-shelf mirrorless today) and not the needs of videographers which Canon, back in the day, out of serendipity, somehow met with the 5D Mk2 and created a new category of cameras: hybrid DSLRs.

But this never reached a level that pros used these cameras on demanding projects; they were just not good enough on so many levels that the list would be beyond this thread's scope. In a way, that has changed and did not change at all. Colour is there, and with the Atomos, fidelity is too. Handling is still awkward, and when using proper PL lenses, the whole thing becomes somewhat absurd. 

But still, there's a market for less demanding projects where hybrid cameras fit in snugly, even are preferable. That's what I would like to see:

• Internally recorded high fidelity video files that can exceed 800 Mbits, preferable in 444 or raw. That way, they are green screen capable. 
• ACES support
• TC support
• S-16mm support (sensor crop to 2.5k on the SL-2S)
• Anamorphic support 
• Usable AF for video (Canon is the benchmark to meet)

But in the end, the SL line is a stills camera, as is the R5, the A1, you name it. If Leica built a digital film camera, I'd be the first to check. But when executed in a genuinely Leica fashion, it will become something like the Alexa Mini and as expensive. There is no reason for Leica to compete with the Bavarians. Thus, we won't see such a product anytime soon.

[Slender]

Can SD cards take 800mbs?

All of that joins what I somewhat feel/try to express: its not a pure video dedicated product/brand, so I find it silly to enquire about users rejoycing about paying for silly updates (perspective tool lol) or what should be basic since the GH4 days: monitoring tools and the likes, perhaps a couple more formats/codecs. But then again I appreciate they dont want to confuse the vast majority of the user pool (well off hobyists) with deep menus and 44 differents video settings... and that helps keep things "wesentlich" for pros who like me prefer it this way.

I dont know if you ever used Leica apps before, but it was never great and even themselves understood it was a bit abusive to pay for them.

Also we should forget AF for video for now.... I dont think software tuning at the rythm of 1-2 times a year can solve this. I really like it for stills tho.

 

 

Edited March 26, 2021 by Slender

[BernardC]

16 hours ago, Simone_DF said:

So, on top of paying for a firmware upgrade, the user also has to pay international shipping and return, plus courier insurance. Wouldn't that be a deal breaker for whoever doesn't live near a service centre?

I my case no. What I was talking about was Sony offering a 4K RAW mod for some of their earlier HD cine cameras (FS700 and others). The sensor could do 4K, but the electronics couldn't because those cameras were born in an HD world. The upgrade fee covered new electronics and firmware.

Same with my Hasselblad example. The 20x-series of cameras could be modified, for a fee, to be compatible with Hasselblad's then-new CFV digital backs. Those cameras were released a decade earlier, the fee was reasonable, and you got a full service thrown-in.

Leica has historically offered similar upgrades to their M and screw-mount cameras. It annoys collectors, but it's also a net-gain for users.

[Anbaric]

Perhaps Leica see a great opportunity for a partnership with Adobe? You get firmware updates as long as you keep up your Creative Cloud subscription, but if you stop paying your camera locks up.

[beewee]

13 hours ago, Slender said:

The Leica survey is all "excited" about the perspective correction thing... I am sorry what? My lightroom does it no problems.... I feel they want to test how their "older" ( and richer and perhaps less software retouching litterate... or gold-crocodile collectors) customer base is impressed by that, and if there is more to suck from that.

Calling the perspective control feature ‘computational imaging’ is a bit of a joke. If we’re going to go down that path, they should use computational imaging to cover lens distortion correction and chromatic aberration correction as well. I’m glad at least Leica didn’t charge money for this feature. I had an undergrad lab assignment where I wrote a program to do more advanced image processing than this.

When it comes to computational imaging, I feel Apple is actually doing something innovative. I’m not referring to their fancy imaging processing pipeline which is actually quite decent and works very well, but rather their night mode feature. With night mode, the iPhone 12 combines accelerometer and gyroscope data to stack pixel level imaging data and correct for camera movements to generate a single sharp handheld long exposure up to several seconds in duration. That to me is worthy of the name computational imaging.

[Hendo]

Maybe Leica SL2 can hev syuch night modefeature programmed in the next update? Just need some clever software engineering..

[beewee]

1 hour ago, Hendo said:

Maybe Leica SL2 can hev syuch night modefeature programmed in the next update? Just need some clever software engineering..

Seriously doubt it. It would require a specific image processing pipeline, very high speed sensor readout, massive memory buffers, and an ASIC dedicated for such a task. It’s not just software. It’s silicon.

[Photoworks]

are we there ? still waiting. cherry blossom is almost past here. Lets go Leica. 

[waynexu1998]

Yeah I have also been waiting for the SL2 update

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[rim_light]

As the update for the Panasonic S1 etc arrived some days ago, I hope we will get some news from Leica soon...

[Simone_DF]

53 minutes ago, rim_light said:

As the update for the Panasonic S1 etc arrived some days ago, I hope we will get some news from Leica soon...

Actually that's the second update after the massive firmware update that came out last november.