Leica SL2-S for Independent Low Budget Movie Making?

[Tom1234]

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1 hour ago, Steven said:

Thank you. 

10 BIT 422 HLG, 4K, 24FPS, all Internal. 

Color thin? Not sure what you mean by thin ? 

Most likely, though, it was a colour grade decision, not the camera. 

 

Everyones SL2-S video I've seen, and even stills for that matter, do not seem to have as much saturation as like the M10 or M9.  I really liked that deeper Euro look.  I am not saying it is bad, just not the thrill I was hoping for... just does not get me emotionally as much. 

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[Tom1234]

Steve: So what do you think of the Komodo?

https://www.red.com/komodo

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1598390-REG/red_digital_cinema_710_0333_komodo_6k_digital_cinema.html

[Slender]

@Steven@Tom1234

https://www.leitz-cine.com/productions

You can select M0.8 in "produtcs:" and see all the productions that uses M lenses for their films.

Some in depth article about this here:

https://www.afcinema.com/About-the-Leica-M-0-8-lenses.html?lang=fr

Leica's own commercial shot by Dominic Nahr is fairly good looking and exemplifies what the SL2(s) should be used for, a best of both world hybrid for the photographer who wants to shoot beautiful things by himself. You can always rig it with monitors, recorders, XLR pre amps.... but it defeats the portability.
 

 

[Tom1234]

Some great practical information about sl2-s color here:

 

The color looks thin (not saturated) but that seems to be true in all low light cameras that I've seen featured on the web.  Scroll down to find the Internal recording verses External recording using an Atomos Ninji V - the external feed to the Atomos gives deeper color - maybe the bit rate is higher?

[ruskkyle]

I don’t agree at all that AF is essential for solo shooter / documentary work. I’ve never used autofocus. It comes down to practising your technique.

[hansvons]

25 minutes ago, ruskkyle said:

I don’t agree at all that AF is essential for solo shooter / documentary work. I’ve never used autofocus. It comes down to practising your technique.

Agreed. I've spent the early 90ies as a news gathering cameraman. Long day solo shooting, run and gun, no AF, demanding clients. The SL2-S is my first AF capable camera that can shoot video. I find the AF useless for video, since focus selection and focus racking is integral part of the storytelling which I rarely want a machine to decide. In the stills world, however, it's a godsend. AF enables sharp point-and-forget photos which is exactly what I want (I never check shots on the rear screen).

[ruskkyle]

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6 minutes ago, Steven said:

I am not saying it is essential. I am saying that most solo shooter will logically go the AF route. 

Fair enough. But I still think AF for video is something being massively pushed by the vlogger generation as something that must be present and work perfectly in any camera to be even considered viable.

But the truth, at least for anyone used to using manual/cine lenses on bigger cameras, is that in a situation where it is critical you nail the shot first time - like documentary - you are going to trust your own hand-eye coordination over the camera’s brain every time!

Well, that’s how I see it anyway.

[hansvons]

1 hour ago, Tom1234 said:

The color looks thin (not saturated) but that seems to be true in all low light cameras that I've seen featured on the web.  Scroll down to find the Internal recording verses External recording using an Atomos Ninji V - the external feed to the Atomos gives deeper color - maybe the bit rate is higher?

I can assure you that the SL2-S colour is in no way thin. In my experience, the SL2-S colour is the best I’ve seen on any DSLR-style camera. That is highly subjective, but when taking an Alexa as the benchmark, the Leica isn’t far off. The internal codec, of course, is “somewhat” thin, but it’s not scaring at all. On the contrary, it shows texture which I can well live with. Recording with an Atomos on 422 ProRes changes that. The shots are cleaner, but the whole truth will be seen when eventually ProRes RAW will be enabled, and green screen work is on the table.

[hansvons]

 

Steven, I can only underline what you are stating in your video about good manual glass and its value retention. When investing in a RedOne package back in 2008, I did precisely that. I got myself a Zeiss Super Speeds set that I sold 2 years ago at a significant premium. I agree with what you are saying about what a camera body should cost if you are not in the rental business or are doing occasional films that are either for your self or client work on a budget (what I’m doing more lately for the environmental movement). In that case, renting would be too expensive and owning a big gun much too costly.

Today’s video cameras can shoot in a quality that wasn’t conceivable at that price point 5 years ago. 

[Tom1234]

29 minutes ago, hansvons said:

I can assure you that the SL2-S colour is in no way thin. In my experience, the SL2-S colour is the best I’ve seen on any DSLR-style camera. That is highly subjective, but when taking an Alexa as the benchmark, the Leica isn’t far off. The internal codec, of course, is “somewhat” thin, but it’s not scaring at all. On the contrary, it shows texture which I can well live with. Recording with an Atomos on 422 ProRes changes that. The shots are cleaner, but the whole truth will be seen when eventually ProRes RAW will be enabled, and green screen work is on the table.

Thank you for this comment.  It is what I was hoping for.  

Possibly the lossy web site video and still downsizing programs thin out the color.  Maybe all video color is just less that still file color given the nature of needing smaller files for streaming video... thinning down color may be be part of the video codec... they do call it 4:2:2. 

[Tom1234]

Is there a list of, is anyone using, the old 1930's through 1990's Leica-m lenses for video?  

I am not interested in the new lens designs - all the new "perfect lenses" look too similar to me... it is almost stupid to compare them. Ok, they are a bit different, but, not as different as the pre-year-2000 Leica-M glass. 

[Slender]

For all intended purposes of video. do not neglect the R glass. It is available and gorgeous for video... plenty of good youtube exemples. Cooke/Panavision C-Series look for "cheap" and you can go crazy with modifications on them
 

 

[frame-it]

26 minutes ago, Slender said:

do not neglect the R glass.

 

200 pages of fun reading..and many great images

https://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?112329-LEICA-R-on-RED-Pictures

Edited March 13, 2021 by frame-it

[ruskkyle]

31 minutes ago, Steven said:

Maybe. 
but AF is still a progress that unable filmmakers to do things they couldn’t before, and in turn it enables content consumers to receive things they couldn’t before. So it’s a positive thing. 
 

check out Philip bloom on YouTube. He’s a non vlogger talented filmmaker. Hes embraced the use of AF and it has massively improved his (one man band) filmmaking. 

Yeah I know his stuff.

The fact remains I don’t know a single camera op who uses AF. Perhaps that will change as the FX9/6 generation bodies become the norm and people move away from adapted Canon glass. Hasn’t happened yet.

[Tom1234]

18 minutes ago, Steven said:

Solo filmmakers are are not camera operators. They use AF because they dont have a choice. They are filmmakers none the less. Great ones too, and worthy of the title. There will be more and more solo filmmakers in the future and I believe that we will see incredible pieces of art from artists that have been enabled by AF. 

It's a bit to reducing, IMO, to say that if you don't MF you're just a hobbyist filmmaker at best, and I read that a lot in the forum. Things evolved. Let's be open minded. 

Sadly autofocus has "made it" become valid when done well.  Like computer automated transmissions in Formula One replacing manual.  Another tradition bites the dust. 

[Kim Dahl]

23 hours ago, Steven said:

If you only need video with no AF, the best price/quality you ration you can find on the market is the BPCCC 6K pro. Real cinema camera, amazing colors, best codecs, any lens can be adapted to it and it comes with Da vinci for free. If you need AF and occasional stills, the A7SIII is the next best thing. 

The SL2S is, in my opinion i précise, first and foremost a stills camera (an amazing one, better than the SL2, in my opinion) and the video side is bonus. It can take, in my opinion, amazing videos. 

Here’s one i shot while travelling around Colombia last month: 

https://www.instagram.com/p/CL4qncQphox/

Hi Steven. I want to first thank you for the many posts in the forum.  It's great to read your views.  It is often very learning.  👍🏻☺️ Thanks for the link.  What beautiful pictures !  It is beautiful and special.  Almost a kind of live portraits.  
Q: Shot with SL2s + Which lens have you used?  If it's the same Leica M on all ? 

[ruskkyle]

13 minutes ago, Steven said:

It's a bit to reducing, IMO, to say that if you don't MF you're just a hobbyist filmmaker at best, and I read that a lot in the forum. Things evolved. Let's be open minded. 

Huh? That is specifically not what I said and you know that... 

Anyway, bit OT now so steering back to the subject, there is of course no barrier to using the SL series - or any hybrid - to make a film. Indeed the image coming out of the S as pointed out by @hansvons is spectacular in its natural colour palette.

Where you will need to consider carefully is in its practicality on set. Once the camera has likely been rigged out with auxiliary power (the comparatively small internal batteries are not designed for extended use, remaining powered up between takes etc), matte box, monitor/recorder, cage etc, it isn’t really much smaller than a ‘cine’ camera. I know that wasn’t the OP’s main concern but it’s a consideration. And that doesn’t factor in timecode synch for sound, multiple video outs, etc.

So my view would be: by all means go for it, but be aware you might be making your DP’s life more complicated than it might otherwise be.

[Tom1234]

2 minutes ago, ruskkyle said:

Huh? That is specifically not what I said and you know that... 

Anyway, bit OT now so steering back to the subject, there is of course no barrier to using the SL series - or any hybrid - to make a film. Indeed the image coming out of the S as pointed out by @hansvons is spectacular in its natural colour palette.

Where you will need to consider carefully is in its practicality on set. Once the camera has likely been rigged out with auxiliary power (the comparatively small internal batteries are not designed for extended use, remaining powered up between takes etc), matte box, monitor/recorder, cage etc, it isn’t really much smaller than a ‘cine’ camera. I know that wasn’t the OP’s main concern but it’s a consideration. And that doesn’t factor in timecode synch for sound, multiple video outs, etc.

So my view would be: by all means go for it, but be aware you might be making your DP’s life more complicated than it might otherwise be.

My cinematographer friend has said almost exactly what you have just written.  I have consensus I guess.  Still I would prefer 35mm film. 

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[Slender]

@Tom1234 hey what about the S1H with all the Leica lenses you could ever want?

It has:

• 6k ProRes Raw with now all the bells and whistle you can play with in post (raw to log, iso, wb...)
• Atomos Ninja5 is offered for free if you buy one now (at CVP and surely B&H)
• It has an OLPF filter so no moire/alliasing like you may see on still cameras...
• Time code sync port
• 2 x Dual ISO settings
• You can shoot raw (and then convert to log) with as low an ISO you want: money saved on ND filters
• The L mount has a screw to secure adapters (like L to PL) sturdily... sadly no other L mount camera has this
• Flip out screen
• Dual XLR input accessories
• Built In monitor tools like scopes and waveforms
• Triple Rec Button
• A Laaarge top screen with more monitoring options than any other L mount camera (audio levels too)
• Is way more easily rigged (cheaper at least) than Leica cameras (you dont have to bite the LockCircle bullet)
• Built Fan for unlimited record time
• Is compatible with dummy batteries (for D-Tap V-lock for example... or NPF, power banks...) Sonething we are sadly unlikely to see for Leica SL unless you make your own.
• Is Netflix approved and matches with Varicam like twins.
• The list goes on....

 

 

 

[hansvons]

2 hours ago, Steven said:

Ok but also I’m trying to convince a 60+ in average group of users of the benefits of AF!!!! You guys are from another generation 😂 

of course you hate AF if you’ve never used it for 40 years and then discovered af on the horrible sl2s (as far as af is concerned). 
try an r5 or an a1 for a day, you’ll see what I’m talking about.  The a1 pulls focus better than a focus puller. 

Hahaha! I just turned 54. Started early.

Last Summer, I shot a project on the Canon C500MK2 with EF lenses. The AF was working impressively. On an other project I’ve used the 500MK2 with my PL-lenses and Canon’s Sumire Primes (interesting take on the idea of vintage look in modern glass). With Canon’s EVF, the C 500M2s is a very capable cine camera. But for me, AF isn’t a feature I put on top of the list, more something nice to have. The top priority for me is skin tones, colour and contrast in general, and the roll-off in the whites, plus texture because that’s what in the end will be the result of all the effort.