Is the M10-R a Success?

[junix]

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My personal view on OP question (just to get slightly back on topic..)..

I think the M10-R was a success because with minimal R&D (let's be honest..):

• Leica "bought some time" for the M11 to be ready while still selling M10 bodies
• Leica got more than a few upgrades M10(10-P) to M10-R because of FOMO
• Leica sold more than a few M10-R to newcomers (me included.. thinking that it will have a better resell value down the line compared to the M10-P that costed almost the same)
• Leica tested the market of higher resolution sensor in the M system (some people love it, some people hate it.. I'm still not sure although I bought the R instead of the P)

IMHO, the fact that the camera is in stock almost everywhere shows that it is not selling that well (for a Leica that should almost by definition have limited availability..), but Leica sold these bodies to their resellers..

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[setuporg]

3 hours ago, crf59 said:

Nobody is criticizing the R, but your approach seems to be to call everyone who bought a P an idiot

At the time of the P appearance, I couldn't understand why would folks upgrade to it from the original M10.  This is very different from "anyone who bough a P".  The upgrade was quite expensive if you wanted to do it at the factory.  I still don't understand the need for an upgrade from M10 to P unless quiet shutter is absolutely essential to you as an e.g. concert photographer.  If we are talking about the success of the R, my point is it has much more to differentiate it from the preceding M10s than any other, especially the P.  Thus R is poised for success more than any other M10, in my opinion.  The R upgrade was almost automatic for me, I put myself on a waiting list for it well in advance, while with the P I never even bothered to ponder it over the original M10.  As anyone else here I'm reporting my own take, so YMMV.

[setuporg]

2 hours ago, Steven said:

While the looks of the M10P is much nicer, I referred indeed to the quiet shutter

Jono makes an interesting point that in model photography the audible click is a confirmation of the shot, and that he in fact misses it.  So even that is not a given for different use cases.  I enjoy a solid click as much as I enjoy a quiet one.  The Edition 60 click is amazing, coming from a steel body.  The weirdest click of all is the original central shutter of the XCD 45mm lens for the X1D, which scared so many people about that system they had to redo it with the 45P.  Someone on the SL forum referred to the SL2 shutter sound as orgasmic.:). Hence it's clearly an important consideration, and the R has everything the P has including the quiet shutter, which seems to be a standard now.  Referring to Jono's point, someone said that would be great to have that configurable, which is clearly not a mechanical option, while a fake shutter sound is something that a smartphone makes but conceivably could be added to Leica, if only to cause a shock and awe on this forum.:)

[Guest]

42 minutes ago, setuporg said:

At the time of the P appearance, I couldn't understand why would folks upgrade to it from the original M10.  This is very different from "anyone who bough a P".  The upgrade was quite expensive if you wanted to do it at the factory.  I still don't understand the need for an upgrade from M10 to P unless quiet shutter is absolutely essential to you as an e.g. concert photographer.  If we are talking about the success of the R, my point is it has much more to differentiate it from the preceding M10s than any other, especially the P.  Thus R is poised for success more than any other M10, in my opinion.  The R upgrade was almost automatic for me, I put myself on a waiting list for it well in advance, while with the P I never even bothered to ponder it over the original M10.  As anyone else here I'm reporting my own take, so YMMV.

Well I did upgrade from the 10 to the 10-P at Wetzlar, ( the only place it's done BTW ), these were my reasons the time and I still have no problem at all with the decision. My M10 I bought when it was first released and it's been bumped around the world on various travels, ( remember those? ), picking up some scratches, dings and other signs of a busy life. The rangefinder was out of whack, the 4 buttons on the rear of the camera were occasionally unresponsive, and the battery contacts inside the camera were temperamental plus some other minor nudges needing attention, and it was out of warranty too. Having along the line of M10 ownership picked up a M10-D and a M10-M I could with the cameras immediately to hand discover that there's no question that the newer, quieter, shutter was desirable for my usage, ( film sets and so on ). Also a year or so back now I did have some advanced clues that the R would come out and some details of it's larger sensor but as it was still to be in the M10 form even with a higher MP sensor and even without actually trying one out at that time I knew the R probably wouldn't float my boat.........So I upgraded the M10 to the M10-P, got the improved shutter, had a slew of other repairs and needed servicing done to the camera inclusive of the upgrade cost, ( I don't care for nor use the level gauge ),  and had another year's warranty thrown in with the work so basically ended up with a new camera, again. No regrets at all. I still did trial a M10-R, last year but as said before it's not for me. However, IF Leica decides to put the 24mp SL2-S sensor in an M down the road that might peak my interest.......otherwise I'm well content with what I have until the next full iteration of the Leica M comes along. The P is truly one highly capable camera and for me not one to be put aside so easily.

All that's personal camera choices history though...I am not slagging the M10-R in any way, I think it's great that Leica is still developing the M in various ways irrespective of whether or not the upgrades appeal to me and yes I think the reason it was launched in the "time of Covid" could be relevant, at a difficult trading time it keeps their base excited and eager to buy, which in turn keeps Leica ticking over until they are ready for a more serious development of the M platform.

Edited February 15, 2021 by petermullett

[setuporg]

The new sensor, as usual most likely made for S3 and shared with M10R is probably as much R&D as the quiet shutter.  The fact that R became available 6 months after launch is not anything unusual, especially given the times.  Let's all see after it runs its full lifecycle, eh?

[Hanno]

On 2/10/2021 at 12:05 AM, jplomley said:

...or did Leica get it wrong? I'm not hearing a lot of fanfare on this 40 MP variant, and certainly not many users on this forum waxing lyrical. Even the number of posted images from the camera is rather dismal. My local dealer informs the M10M is easily outselling the M10-R. Not to mention the M10-R introduction by Leica was very low key, as if they did not want anyone to notice 🙂

So, did they miss the mark completely? And what does this mean for the M11? Curious to hear the forum feedback! 

 

 

I would agree that for many owners of a M10-D or M10-P there would be a limited interest in upgrading to the M10-R. Personally I saw no sufficient reasons to upgrade from the M10 to the M10-P and I simply waited for the next round.

The RF/M series is a niche and I would believed it is mostly used as hobby/personal projects. It is quite possible in a COVID environment that new purchasers may have preferred buying a much more affordable M10/M10-P body on the secondary market and didn’t see the reason to pay a premium for the M10-R. It is quite possible also that new buyers are turning instead towards Q2, SL2, SL2-S.

So many (valid) reasons which could explain the commercial status of the M10-R if indeed the sales have proven disappointing (which I don’t know; it may be the case in certain regions of the world but not in others).

Though as an evolution of the M series, the M10-R is a step into the future. Whether we like it or not, it is very hard to imagine Leica dropping the high resolution offering in its M series going forward. In today’s market and competition it would make no sense. And I would believe that the success of the M10 Monochrom has proved to Leica that shooting high resolution in a M body (aka OVF) without IBIS is not an issue per say in term of demand. 

So what the M10-R has done is creating a path forward and putting high pressure to Leica in providing enough enhancements to the M experience and rationale for an upgrade when the M11 is due. So personally I do welcome the M10-R for its contribution to where the M series will have to go, and I do enjoy shooting with it as with the M10-M, and more importantly enjoying the M lenses.

Edited February 16, 2021 by Hanno

[setuporg]

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Only Leica could make something like M-D or M10-D, and the "success" of those measured by sales is probably much less than the real success and admiration by mindshare and the small but brilliant group of folks enjoying them.  In that sense the R has already succeeded by winning the minds of its many users, which is what real success here always is.  After all this is not a dealers' forum, but the enthusiasts'.:)

[jplomley]

On 2/14/2021 at 10:23 PM, Jeff S said:

So why the frustration, Jeff, over Leica’s long delayed SL 21 Summicron?  Would that cover different needs (other than weather sealing)?

Jeff

Great question Jeff! The last trip I was able to make to Romania for an on-going project saw two weeks of rain out of a four week trip. Fortunately, in additions to my M10's, I had taken the SL, and that partially saved the trip. So weather sealing is a big plus for me as it allows me to shoot independent of weather conditions whilst taking advantage of the inherent mood that accompanies such conditions. I simply love shooting in adverse weather conditions. 

In addition to the weather sealing, a number of places I photographed would have benefited from a fast wide angle prime with close focus abilities, something that my 21 SEM lacks and therefore is restrictive for the sort of rendering I envision. I know the 21 Lux is available, but that does not solve the close focus issue, and frankly the asking price for the performance level of this optic just does not align. Without a doubt, the 21 APO will be superior in every respect, and cost much less based on current APO Summicron pricing. I'm hoping that when COVID goes the way of the dinosaur, I will be able to get back to Romania to finish my reportage on the slow and inevitable Westernization of that country. The next trip will see the M10-R (and possibly M10M) for street in the more densely populated areas (Bucharest, Cluj-Napoca etc) and my SL2 with 21-28-75 APO's for off the grid rural areas, where as a Canadian I stand out like a sore thumb! Based on my past two trips, there is no sense even trying to be discreet in those areas.

And finally, I appreciate the fact that the SL lenses are simply bullet-proof, and that's important to me when travelling such great distances and for prolonged periods. It gives me great peace of mind to just focus on the task at hand. Equipment failure is something I'd rather avoid.

Hope some of this rambling makes sense! 

Below image with the SL Typ 601and 75 APO Cron L.

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Edited February 16, 2021 by jplomley

[Jeff S]

Makes sense, Jeff.  Hope it arrives for you sooner than later.  I can hardly wait for things to open back up for my photography and travel!

Jeff

[jslabovitz]

18 minutes ago, jplomley said:

I'm hoping that when COVID goes the way of the dinosaur, I will be able to get back to Romania to finish my reportage on the slow and inevitable Westernization of that country. The next trip will see the M10-R (and possibly M10M) for street in the more densely populated areas (Bucharest, Cluj-Napoca etc) and my SL2 with 21-28-75 APO's for off the grid rural areas, where as a Canadian I stand out like a sore thumb! Based on my past two trips, there is no sense even trying to be discreet in those areas.

 

I traveled to Romania in 1998 — Cluj-Napoca and Brasov, but also Suceava and smaller places. It was one of the most interesting journeys I’ve ever taken, and still recall it fondly. It was very raw travel, but I met amazing & friendly people everywhere. I’m sure it’s changed in the 20+ years since, but I’d love to return some day.

I wasn’t seriously photographing, but had an Olympus XA4 with slide film. I should dig those slides out some time and take a look...

[jplomley]

1 minute ago, jslabovitz said:

 

I traveled to Romania in 1998 — Cluj-Napoca and Brasov, but also Suceava and smaller places. It was one of the most interesting journeys I’ve ever taken, and still recall it fondly. It was very raw travel, but I met amazing & friendly people everywhere. I’m sure it’s changed in the 20+ years since, but I’d love to return some day.

I wasn’t seriously photographing, but had an Olympus XA4 with slide film. I should dig those slides out some time and take a look...

Raw travel indeed! And visually stimulating, images everywhere. Some of the villages cannot even be found on a map. I just love meandering through the countryside, picking a "road" and see what's happening. I ended up in some village with a population of 30, all farmers and still attending church on Sundays in a rickety wooden temple from the 17th century. Mind boggling. And friendly indeed. In Craiova I was invited by a priest to photograph a baptism and wedding on the same day. And not one person minded that I was there. That would never happen in North America.

And don't get me started on the quality of the food. Spectacular. I'm not up to speed on what sorts of bastardization is happening to our food in North America, but I can tell you the food in Romania is the freshest and most tasty I've had anywhere. Not one incident of GI upset. I eat a croissant here and I bloat up like the Michelin Man. I remember eating a tomato a farmer in one of the villages had given me, and it was like I had never tasted a proper tomato in the 50 years of my existence. And then he walks me around to the side of his house and he has bee hives. Gave me raw honeycomb to try, and that pretty much spoiled honey from the grocer for me. 

 

[mmradman]

8 minutes ago, jplomley said:

Raw travel indeed! And visually stimulating, images everywhere. Some of the villages cannot even be found on a map. I just love meandering through the countryside, picking a "road" and see what's happening. I ended up in some village with a population of 30, all farmers and still attending church on Sundays in a rickety wooden temple from the 17th century. Mind boggling. And friendly indeed. In Craiova I was invited by a priest to photograph a baptism and wedding on the same day. And not one person minded that I was there. That would never happen in North America.

And don't get me started on the quality of the food. Spectacular. I'm not up to speed on what sorts of bastardization is happening to our food in North America, but I can tell you the food in Romania is the freshest and most tasty I've had anywhere. Not one incident of GI upset. I eat a croissant here and I bloat up like the Michelin Man. I remember eating a tomato a farmer in one of the villages had given me, and it was like I had never tasted a proper tomato in the 50 years of my existence. And then he walks me around to the side of his house and he has bee hives. Gave me raw honeycomb to try, and that pretty much spoiled honey from the grocer for me. 

 

No name mentioned big convinience food chains are probably alays on the lookout to "enlighten" remaining gastronomic backwaters.    

[setuporg]

1 hour ago, jplomley said:

I will be able to get back to Romania to finish my reportage on the slow and inevitable Westernization of that country

Where can we see it?:)

[jplomley]

1 hour ago, Jeff S said:

Makes sense, Jeff.  Hope it arrives for you sooner than later.  I can hardly wait for things to open back up for my photography and travel!

Jeff

Completely understand! I look at it this way, the $$$ I'm saving by not travelling due to COVID will allow me to sooner purchase Wetzlar goods should they deliver product in a timely fashion. They've been rolling out a good number of bodies recently, would like to see them now roll up the sleeves and get those Summicrons out the door. There are many of us waiting, and I bought into the SL system specifically for access to those prime lenses. I can get decent zooms anywhere, but nothing has that wide-open cinematic look of the APO Summicrons. For me, thats the sell.

[jplomley]

6 minutes ago, setuporg said:

Where can we see it?:)

One more trip sir, and then I'll get to task. Some other areas I need to cover in the next trip, and other parts I wish to return. 

[criolf]

@jplomley - as a Romanian native, I'm very interested in whatever you put together, hopefully a photo book, so please do share with us when you're ready.

Hope you'll get back there soon and finish your project.