Is the M10-R a Success?

[setuporg]

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9 hours ago, petermullett said:

I'm sure that you would have voiced the same opinion when the 18Mp M9 was superseded by the 24Mp M's. There's the slippery slope of upgrading to the newest and shiniest.

 

9 hours ago, jaapv said:

The quality of photographs does not come from spending on the newest and shiniest.

It's important to distinguish between the newest and the shiniest.  The M9 was a quantum leap over M8 because of the return to the FF format and more than half a century heritage in lens art and tradition.  The X1D was a quantum leap over FF into consumer MF space and we have such fantastic developments as GFX100S and 907x.  Some advances change photography quite radically.

As far as this forum goes, the most baffling era to me was the M10P vs M10.  People seriously paid $4K difference for an upgrade that did not affect image quality in any way, unless you consider startling strangers with a louder shutter as having a material impact on IQ. And a touch screen, which is barely useful on an M. Yeah, you can move the exposure adjustment with your finger now.  Awesome.

So after essentially 3 years of choosing between the two, the M10R arrives with substantial improvements to image quality -- both in resolution, but also in automatic exposure.

4 hours ago, Nowhereman said:

That "blown highlights...are gone" with the M10-R is clearly an overstatement: they could possibly be "gone" only if one if one never were to shoot into the light or with strong sidelight — even negative B&W film will sometime blow the highlights if the light in such conditions is strong.

Yes, it might be due to a variety of adjustments, both the sensor and the DNG curve, but the result is clearly very simply less blown highlights SOOC, better DR as seen by the eye, and thus the whole experience of photography becomes more seamless and enjoyable.  Leica gets out of the way -- fewer buttons, and now fewer noise to worry about.  This is what makes the M10R the most important upgrade of the M line so far, IMHO.

[artjom.kutuzov]

For me it was an easy choice for these reasons: 1) dynamic range 2) iso performance 3) thinner on sensor glass (with some wide angle lenses performance is far better) 4) higher resolution. When I buy great M glass it just performs better on M10-R, also it gives me great cropping and post production opportunities and I can print bigger. I don’t know any reasons why I would pick M10-P to be honest. 

[Kwesi]

4 hours ago, setuporg said:

As far as this forum goes, the most baffling era to me was the M10P vs M10.  People seriously paid $4K difference for an upgrade that did not affect image quality in any way, unless you consider startling strangers with a louder shutter as having a material impact on IQ

I thought you were a Leica guy.

Sounds like you haven't done your Leica homework.

People upgraded from M8 to M8.2, M9-M9P, M240 to M240P, why would the M10 to M10P be different?

[jplomley]

39 minutes ago, artjom.kutuzov said:

For me it was an easy choice for these reasons: 1) dynamic range 2) iso performance 3) thinner on sensor glass (with some wide angle lenses performance is far better) 4) higher resolution. When I buy great M glass it just performs better on M10-R, also it gives me great cropping and post production opportunities and I can print bigger. I don’t know any reasons why I would pick M10-P to be honest. 

Well said.

Something I forgot to add was the use of the M10-R as an alternative to my SL2 when I'm hiking long distance for landscape opportunities. The M10-R with 21-28-50 is just so compact and lightweight. I use a Billingham vest (not sure these are even available anymore) for the two lenses not on the camera, and hike with the camera strap over the shoulder (secured by the shoulder buckle of the vest). 5-10 miles is a breeze with this set-up.

The 40 MP sensor gives me more than sufficient resolution to record the finest details nature has to offer, competing very well against the SL2. In fact, I would say that compared to the SL2 with Leica L glass, which does have that "digital" look in print, images from the M10-R are more organic, akin to a drum scan of 6x7 transparency film. So, something else to keep in mind for those that will press the M into subject material beyond street/reportage, the 40 MP makes the R a serious landscape camera. 

[Jeff S]

2 hours ago, jplomley said:

The 40 MP sensor gives me more than sufficient resolution to record the finest details nature has to offer, competing very well against the SL2. In fact, I would say that compared to the SL2 with Leica L glass, which does have that "digital" look in print, images from the M10-R are more organic, akin to a drum scan of 6x7 transparency film. So, something else to keep in mind for those that will press the M into subject material beyond street/reportage, the 40 MP makes the R a serious landscape camera. 

So why the frustration, Jeff, over Leica’s long delayed SL 21 Summicron?  Would that cover different needs (other than weather sealing)?

Jeff

[setuporg]

3 hours ago, Kwesi said:

I thought you were a Leica guy.

Sounds like you haven't done your Leica homework.

People upgraded from M8 to M8.2, M9-M9P, M240 to M240P, why would the M10 to M10P be different?

We're all suckers in some way overpaying for stuff with different engravings, but at least I can say I did not upgrade from M10 to M10P, which would have been the most meaningless upgrade of all.  When I read something like "I was swearing I'll never wish the red-dot-less body but when M10P came out I ran to upgrade", at least I am glad I wasn't that guy.  With the M10R it was obvious we have a substantial upgrade, and you want to use the full 4 year cycle with it.  The M10M is in the same boat.  In fact, it's interesting what a non-gimmicky (engraving/dot/decor) upgrade will follow for M11.  But of all Ms, M10R is the superior one, and yes, it will be a tremendous success for Leica, legendary even.

[setuporg]

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4 minutes ago, Steven said:

Mmmm sorry to disagree here, but I might be an exception. I paid 2k to upgrade to the R from the P, and after a month of use, decided to lose one extra K to “downgrade” from the R to the P again. 
Never regretted my decision. It’s been three months. How do you explain that ? Anger ? Denial ? 
 

can you get clean shots with your R below 1/125 without making extra effort to get a steady hold ? 

I have not looked for blur, but I get as sharp or better images for all handheld shots.  I'm able to get decent shots as low as 1/10s with many systems because I hold them steady.  I'll pay more attention to what happens below 1/125s but it has not been any kind of red flag or gotcha so far, so probably it's a deal breaker.  Again I respect individual observations.  (It's probably anger at the blur.:)

[Jeff S]

16 minutes ago, setuporg said:

With the M10R it was obvious we have a substantial upgrade, and you want to use the full 4 year cycle with it.... snip....
But of all Ms, M10R is the superior one, and yes, it will be a tremendous success for Leica, legendary even.

Bookmark this for when the M11 eventually arrives (Jan, 2022 will be 5 years from start of M10 platform).  What if it has superior (BSI?) sensor, better high ISO and DR, some surprise new feature(s), say for viewing/focusing (or new dedicated external EVF that works only with new M11), other performance or handling enhancements, etc?  The M10-R could be the model that tested the high resolution market, extended the M 10 line, but without the new whizz bang stuff that warrants a new platform designation and that gets the GAS crowd stirred. Rinse and repeat.

Jeff

[setuporg]

1 minute ago, Jeff S said:

Bookmark this for when the M11 eventually arrives (Jan, 2022 will be 5 years from start of M10 platform).  What if it has superior (BSI?) sensor, better high ISO and DR, some surprise new feature(s), say for viewing/focusing (or new dedicated external EVF that works only with new M11), other performance or handling enhancements, etc?  The M10-R could be the model that tested the high resolution market, extended the M 10 line, but without the new whizz bang stuff that warrants a new platform designation and that gets the GAS crowd stirred. Rinse and repeat.

More power to it then!  I've not said that M10R will be the most successful M of all times, only that it has been the most meaningful and probably successful upgrades in the M10 line.  Surely major numbers will be substantial changes.  But if the original question was the success of M10R, it deserves one much more than the P, and has a reasonable timeframe to achieve it.

[Jeff S]

Just now, setuporg said:

More power to it then!  I've not said that M10R will be the most successful M of all times, only that it has been the most meaningful and probably successful upgrades in the M10 line.  Surely major numbers will be substantial changes.  But if the original question was the success of M10R, it deserves one much more than the P, and has a reasonable timeframe to achieve it.

You called it “legendary even”.  
 

Only Leica can know sales goals and success relative to other M10 models.  I would imagine that the Monochrom has been more of a success story, let alone the original M10 or P variant.

Jeff

[setuporg]

There's no P in legendary, but there's an R!

[Jeff S]

Leica killed the real R.  
 

I bet you move beyond the hyphenated R before 4 years.
 

Or, if you think it’s truly legendary, you’ll spend $3-4k more for the R-P version.  🤪
 

Jeff

[Jeff S]

3 minutes ago, Al Brown said:

Absolutely nothing to be argued. Specs wise the M10R is the best digital M Leica on paper on today's date. Many improvements over M10/P.

M10 Monochrom has higher effective resolution and better high ISO performance.

Jeff

[Jeff S]

14 minutes ago, Al Brown said:

M10M is a niche camera.

You wrote best digital M on paper. Last I checked, it was a digital M, all niche. I wouldn’t be surprised if it has outsold the R in the same timeframe after launch.

Jeff

 

[setuporg]

2 hours ago, Jeff S said:

I bet you move beyond the hyphenated R before 4 years.
Or, if you think it’s truly legendary, you’ll spend $3-4k more for the R-P version.  🤪

I can hardly stay out of it for a year...  But R gives a peace of mind.  R-P will be a pass as all Ps if they simply change decor, but R-D, now that would be cool!

[Guest]

Well the good thing about the fact there seems to be more than a few people around with the whims and the funds to keep buying the latest and greatest Leica every year or so either to actually or just to dust it off on a trophy shelf now and again is that money will continue to flow towards Wetzlar and should, hopefully, help to keep their parts and service department ticking over for us lesser mortals who have to keep their old and orphaned cameras limping along in ignominy .

[Guest]

well my last posting above was edited clumsily and I realised too late to correct it, the hazard of the Return Key..........I meant to say :

".................and greatest Leica every year or so either to actually use or just to dust it off on a trophy shelf now and again....."

Edited February 15, 2021 by petermullett

[budjames]

This thread is becoming intense. I'm going out to create images with my M10-R while my M10-P sits on my shelf.

Regards,
Bud James

Please check out my fine art and travel photography at www.budjames.photography or on Instagram at www.instagram.com/budjamesphoto

[crf59]

17 hours ago, setuporg said:

 

It's important to distinguish between the newest and the shiniest.  The M9 was a quantum leap over M8 because of the return to the FF format and more than half a century heritage in lens art and tradition.  The X1D was a quantum leap over FF into consumer MF space and we have such fantastic developments as GFX100S and 907x.  Some advances change photography quite radically.

As far as this forum goes, the most baffling era to me was the M10P vs M10.  People seriously paid $4K difference for an upgrade that did not affect image quality in any way, unless you consider startling strangers with a louder shutter as having a material impact on IQ. And a touch screen, which is barely useful on an M. Yeah, you can move the exposure adjustment with your finger now.  Awesome.

So after essentially 3 years of choosing between the two, the M10R arrives with substantial improvements to image quality -- both in resolution, but also in automatic exposure.

Yes, it might be due to a variety of adjustments, both the sensor and the DNG curve, but the result is clearly very simply less blown highlights SOOC, better DR as seen by the eye, and thus the whole experience of photography becomes more seamless and enjoyable.  Leica gets out of the way -- fewer buttons, and now fewer noise to worry about.  This is what makes the M10R the most important upgrade of the M line so far, IMHO.

Just a note that my M10-P cost me exactly $832 more than the standard M10 would have at my dealer (both new). So don't know where you got $4k from. So I suppose you would also berate people for buying a Monochrom which is also more expensive? I can buy any camera I want and don't need someone else's approval to do so. Your opinion is exactly that and your grating approach is tiresome. Nobody is criticizing the R, but your approach seems to be to call everyone who bought a P an idiot. Don't be so insecure, nobody cares that you bought the R.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[Guest Nowhereman]

32 minutes ago, Steven said:

...I would pay the extra premium in a heartbeat for the P over the regular one. 

For the looks or for the functions? 

For functions, the only ones I can think of are the quieter shutter and the horizontal level function (whatever it's called). As you know, I have a plain-jane M10, whose shutter is quiet enough for me, and the horizontal level doesn't interest me because it's not in the optical viewfinder but only works in Live View, which I don't use in the "heat of battle" (immediacy of shooting) — but for the latter, don't tell me that I need the M10-D. 😀

For the looks, the only thing that bothers me about the M10 is the red Leica logo disk on the front, which I take care of by covering with a piece of black electrical tape.
________________________
Frog Leaping photobook

Edited February 15, 2021 by Nowhereman