Poor man's RF lens concept.

[Ko.Fe.]

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I'm low income earner at the bottom of Leica world.  So, my RF lenses concept is "light on the pocket, small in size." 

 

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[kegon]

I have the Voigtländer 50mm f/1.1 and like it very much... 

[Cobram]

I'm very hapy with my 21mm F4 Color Skopar. Light, small, cheap.

Although I also shot with 50 ASPH LUX and 28 Cron...

I'm willing to spend my money on lenses as they are durable, servicable and retain value. On contrary I find Leica cameras prices way too high as, like other electronic devices, they are not build to work for decades...I mean, yes I accept occasional errors (sensor problems, electronic parts fail etc), but no service support after 5 years (example Leica M-E)..., that is something I should consider in future when buying Leica cameras...

Or maybe not 😋 : https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/12/world/europe/eu-right-to-repair-smartphones.html

[Ko.Fe.]

9 minutes ago, Cobram said:

I'm very hapy with my 21mm F4 Color Skopar. Light, small, cheap.

Although I also shot with 50 ASPH LUX and 28 Cron...

I'm willing to spend my money on lenses as they are durable, servicable and retain value. On contrary I find Leica cameras prices way too high as, like other electronic devices, they are not build to work for decades...I mean, yes I accept occasional errors (sensor problems, electronic parts fail etc), but no service support after 5 years (example Leica M-E)..., that is something I should consider in future when buying Leica cameras...

Or maybe not 😋 : https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/12/world/europe/eu-right-to-repair-smartphones.html

I wrote it before, but it might be worth to repeat. I'm finding cameras galore to be non eco friendly and just consumerism over improvements.

First camera manufacturer who would make modular platform allowing processor, sensor and fw update will be true 21st century manufacturer. Leica is closest to be it, with same RF, limited functionalities of digital M. But profit trumps ecology. So, it must be enforced, if we want to be less destructive to environment.    M/LTM mount lenses are great in this regard, because they could be used with any mirrorless camera. And no needs of updates and aging electronics components replacement.

[colonel]

very nice lenses. I have argued for years that Leica is actual a good low cost platform. 

Ok, not low cost, but low cost for FF mirrorless

I mean a good M240 body is around £2-2.5k, and then lenses are around thing from £100 up. Loads of used ones under £500 and £1000

and the good thing is that you can sell used lenses (or M240 body) for the same or more when you decide to flip, as long as you treat them well!

Walk out of a camera store with the latest AF mirrorless and a couple of lens and kiss goodbye 50 % of your cash instantly ...

[colonel]

1 minute ago, Ko.Fe. said:

First camera manufacturer who would make modular platform allowing processor, sensor and fw update will be true 21st century manufacturer.

never happen

1. sensor upgrades need different electronics. change whole camera

2. cpu needs different board

3. body designs change over time

ends up costing as much as a new body

 

[Cobram]

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3 minutes ago, Ko.Fe. said:

I wrote it before, but it might be worth to repeat. I'm finding cameras galore to be non eco friendly and just consumerism over improvements.

First camera manufacturer who would make modular platform allowing processor, sensor and fw update will be true 21st century manufacturer. Leica is closest to be it, with same RF, limited functionalities of digital M. But profit trumps ecology. So, it must be enforced, if we want to be less destructive to environment.    M/LTM mount lenses are great in this regard, because they could be used with any mirrorless camera. And no needs of updates and aging electronics components replacement.

I was never thinking in this way, but you are right, this concept is very interesting and eco friendly... I will put myself immediately on the list for a modular Leica camera.

[Cobram]

3 minutes ago, colonel said:

never happen

1. sensor upgrades need different electronics. change whole camera

2. cpu needs different board

3. body designs change over time

ends up costing as much as a new body

 

Sad but true...

How will the new EU law regarding electronic devices life time (or service time) affect prices? 

 

[Martin B]

I have a mix of Leica and Voigtlander M lenses. On the wide side, many of my lenses are CV lenses. 

CV 21/1.8 - very sharp, great performance even wide open.
CV 35/1.2 II - very good but not as good as my Leica 35/2.0 vers. IV lens regarding sharpness. Nevertheless, you can't beat f/1.2 if needed!
CV 28/2.0 - also very sharp, wide open some vignetting which is not an issue for me. 
CV 12/5.6 - my widest M lens, works well on my M-E 240 digital camera, too. Quite some vignetting in the corners but otherwise great quality for the money. 

My wish to Voigtlander is just to make a FF circular fisheye lens like 8-15 mm for M mount for a reasonable price tag below $1K. This kind of lens so far is completely missing in the M line. 

[Ko.Fe.]

17 minutes ago, colonel said:

never happen

1. sensor upgrades need different electronics. change whole camera

2. cpu needs different board

3. body designs change over time

ends up costing as much as a new body

 

Actually it is already happened and in different approaches. 

Look at film M and at M10. Same size, same body, same RF.

It is all possible with M. From film to digital. Only thing which needs to be taken to equation is keeping design at same size, shape. Which isn't big deal because electronics only going small and smaller. And been same shape is the M nature.

In fact, where is already free and elegant DIY instructions for how to convert film M to digital M by using of  Sony A series  components.

https://frankencamera.wordpress.com/2020/01/27/leica-m3-digital-conversion-kit/

 

I agree with you on the cost. It isn't going to be cheap with Leica Camera AG. But as with sensor glass on M9 series or this film to digital DIY third party  solutions already exist.

 

Edited February 3, 2021 by Ko.Fe.

[colonel]

9 minutes ago, Ko.Fe. said:

Actually it is already happened and in different approaches. 

Look at film M and at M10. Same size, same body, same RF.

It is all possible with M. From film to digital. Only thing which needs to be taken to equation is keeping design at same size, shape. Which isn't big deal because electronics only going small and smaller. And been same shape is the M nature.

In fact, where is already free and elegant DIY instructions for how to convert film M to digital M by using of  Sony A series  components.

https://frankencamera.wordpress.com/2020/01/27/leica-m3-digital-conversion-kit/

 

I agree with you on the cost. It isn't going to be cheap with Leica Camera AG. But as with sensor glass on M9 series or this film to digital DIY third party  solutions already exist.

 

Least likely with M. Leica change measurements, wheels and buttons. Spec of screen is changed most models. Even if you could replace entire electronics and keep outer case, I expect it would cost the same as a new camera

On the other hand I actually like incremental changes in body, so wouldn't really want an antiquated body with new electronics

Each to his own. Every time this has been tried before it fails, e.g. Ricoh

rgds

 

 

[Ko.Fe.]

4 minutes ago, colonel said:

Least likely with M. Leica change measurements, wheels and buttons. Spec of screen is changed most models. Even if you could replace entire electronics and keep outer case, I expect it would cost the same as a new camera

On the other hand I actually like incremental changes in body, so wouldn't really want an antiquated body with new electronics

Each to his own. Every time this has been tried before it fails, e.g. Ricoh

rgds

 

 

In fact, most possible with M.

1. Measurements changes are insignificant. And going to be less and less in the way with electronics getting smaller.

3. No AF, no dust reduction, no IBIS. 

4. Here is no technical point to change M10 screen size. Screen itself is replaceable part.

5. Buttons and wheels is not even an argument these days. Buttons and wheels are long time programmable from the camera GUI.  And with M series been very simple cameras here is zero technical need to change layout.

To me film M aren't antiquated. Even Leica Camera AG came to initial M design with M-A. 

[pgk]

32 minutes ago, Ko.Fe. said:

In fact, most possible with M.

II agree. ts not the technology, its the ethos which has to be changed.

And FWIW if you wait long enough and are prepared to take lenses which are less than pristine, there are some very reasonably priced Leica lenses to be found. I have a lightweight Tele-Elmarit which cost in the region of $200ish and which works very well other than the flare inherent in this lens. I've had a few cheap Leica lenses and only have some relatively expensive ones due to buying at the rght price and 'trading up' when possible.

Edited February 3, 2021 by pgk

[Harpomatic]

2 hours ago, Martin B said:

My wish to Voigtlander is just to make a FF circular fisheye lens like 8-15 mm for M mount for a reasonable price tag below $1K. This kind of lens so far is completely missing in the M line. 

It isn’t missing: TTArtisan has released a 11mm 2.8 fisheye for M mount.

[Ecar]

2 hours ago, Ko.Fe. said:

I wrote it before, but it might be worth to repeat. I'm finding cameras galore to be non eco friendly and just consumerism over improvements.

First camera manufacturer who would make modular platform allowing processor, sensor and fw update will be true 21st century manufacturer. Leica is closest to be it, with same RF, limited functionalities of digital M. But profit trumps ecology. So, it must be enforced, if we want to be less destructive to environment.    M/LTM mount lenses are great in this regard, because they could be used with any mirrorless camera. And no needs of updates and aging electronics components replacement.

 

2 hours ago, Cobram said:

I was never thinking in this way, but you are right, this concept is very interesting and eco friendly... I will put myself immediately on the list for a modular Leica camera.

Haha - the revenge of Stephen K. Lee 😁

For those who don't remember - or weren't around - he was the CEO of Leica when the M8, the first digital M, was introduced. He claimed that the camera would be "perpetually upgradeable"... He was fired after a few months' tenure as a result - although I'm not sure this was the only reason for his demise.

[Martin B]

58 minutes ago, Harpomatic said:

It isn’t missing: TTArtisan has released a 11mm 2.8 fisheye for M mount.

Thanks for correcting me - I totally missed out on the release of this one! 

[pippy]

2 hours ago, pgk said:

......And FWIW if you wait long enough and are prepared to take lenses which are less than pristine, there are some very reasonably priced Leica lenses to be found. I have a lightweight Tele-Elmarit which cost in the region of $200ish and which works very well other than the flare inherent in this lens...

Whilst I agree with you 100% here, Paul, I have to say in my experience it is usually only the longer-than-'standard' lenses - or those 50mm examples with 'Minor Haze which will Not Affect Image Quality!' which can be found in the sub-£400 / $500 price-range. The odd 3.5cm f3.5 Summaron will be available from time to time but even these get snapped-up avidly.

Wide-angle Leitz lenses on the used market are still almost always priced higher than buying an equivalent or faster lens brand-new from a 3rd party manufacturer.

Longer-than-'Standard' is a different game entirely. A week or so ago I acquired an early (and slightly rare version of the) Red-Scale 135 f4 Tele Elmar in nearly-new condition for well under £300.

It's gorgeous in every understanding of the term and for a 'Poor man' on the look-out for a 135mm lens? It is a Must-Have.

Philip.

[lct]

Neither poor nor rich but 4 of my favourite lenses on the digital CL are CV's: 15/4.5 v2, 21/3.5, 35/2 and 35/1.4 SC v2.

[romualdo]

8 hours ago, Ko.Fe. said:

 

In fact, where is already free and elegant DIY instructions for how to convert film M to digital M by using of  Sony A series  components.

https://frankencamera.wordpress.com/2020/01/27/leica-m3-digital-conversion-kit/

 

Wow!!!

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[Martin B]

5 hours ago, pippy said:

Whilst I agree with you 100% here, Paul, I have to say in my experience it is usually only the longer-than-'standard' lenses - or those 50mm examples with 'Minor Haze which will Not Affect Image Quality!' which can be found in the sub-£400 / $500 price-range. The odd 3.5cm f3.5 Summaron will be available from time to time but even these get snapped-up avidly.

Wide-angle Leitz lenses on the used market are still almost always priced higher than buying an equivalent or faster lens brand-new from a 3rd party manufacturer.

Longer-than-'Standard' is a different game entirely. A week or so ago I acquired an early (and slightly rare version of the) Red-Scale 135 f4 Tele Elmar in nearly-new condition for well under £300.

It's gorgeous in every understanding of the term and for a 'Poor man' on the look-out for a 135mm lens? It is a Must-Have.

Philip.

It's rare but with patience and a bit of luck you can find some Leica lenses 50 mm and wider in nearly mint condition in the $500 range. Impossible on ebay though - most Leica lenses tend to be on the pricier side there currently. Two years ago I found a mint 50/1.5 Summarit for $500 locally on Craigslist. Since the pandemic, online lens prices just have skyrocketed including shipping and taxes. All lens items I bought since the pandemic were through safe local person-to-person sales. Works similar to antenna TV to cable, then to streaming - and now going back to antenna due to price gauging with internet and app fees rising. 

Edited February 4, 2021 by Martin B