Adam Bonn Posted January 31, 2021 Share #21 Posted January 31, 2021 Advertisement (gone after registration) On 1/30/2017 at 4:00 PM, jaapv said: There are two things to be separated here. The 262 probably has a more stable power management, resulting in less banding and thus better high ISO performance The colour differences between the two are due to slightly different colour handling in the camera and can be cancelled out completely by the camera profiles in LR. Possibly Leica got the Bayer filter from a different supplier making the change needed. Jaapv, your theory from back in the day (nearly to the exact day!) is probably as valid, if not more so, today whatever colour differences the 262/240 have is down to hardware and not embedded profiling 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted January 31, 2021 Posted January 31, 2021 Hi Adam Bonn, Take a look here Color rendition of M 240 vs M 262. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Cobram Posted January 31, 2021 Author Share #22 Posted January 31, 2021 13 hours ago, Adam Bonn said: Jim Arnold wrote of review of the 262 v the m9 and included dng samples from each for download and review https://www.jimarnold.org/blog/2015/12/leica-m-typ-262/ As others have noted, there’s a lot of variance and scope for adjustment in a digital workflow. Don’t underestimate the importance of the lens rendering in there either! If one is unhappy with the colours, they can be tweaked, from using a colour checker and creating a lcc/dcp file or on an image by image basis during PP I think everyone agrees colour grading to ones taste is important, but do note that not everyone agrees on what to do.. for example I’ve seen it said on here that the embedded/adobe profiles for the 240 are dreadful. But someone else said (in this very thread) that the adobe profile with a tweak was better than they could get from a custom colour checker profile what does that tell you? Nice colours / nicer colours / accurate colours - as simple as these things sound, they’re actually quite arbitrary concepts* like asking folk to agree on the best song or the nicest tasting chocolate. It will always come down to what you* want or like and what you’re prepared to do work wise to achieve it. and finally... as tool like as cameras are they tend to be quite emotive purchases. So make sure you get the one you want, not the one that screams “this’ll do” as buyers remorse is a horrible thing! All evidence, both tangible and empirical, points to the m10 being the nicest M for colours since the M9. #justsayin 😉 *for clarity I’m not talking about colour critical work such as product, fashion, food etc whereby everyone involve really needs to sing off the same colour song sheet! Dear Adam, Thank you for your answer. I agree with you. I was also thinking of M10 but there are two things I don't like about this camera: lower battery life (very very important for me), brownish appearance of photos and many times strange skin tones. Leica SL 601 exhibit almost perfect skin tones in my opinion. My colleague bought M10 when it came out and is complaining every day about pink/ redish skin tones. I borrowed his camera for fey days and I have to agree there is something strange about colors (comparing to M9 and highly personal opinion☺️ ) He owns also M9 and now is using almost exclusively M9, grabbing his m10 just for low light situations. That's why I was thinking of M 262. 1 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Bonn Posted January 31, 2021 Share #23 Posted January 31, 2021 5 minutes ago, Cobram said: Dear Adam, Thank you for your answer. I agree with you. I was also thinking of M10 but there are two things I don't like about this camera: lower battery life (very very important for me), brownish appearance of photos and many times strange skin tones. Leica SL 601 exhibit almost perfect skin tones in my opinion. My colleague bought M10 when it came out and is complaining every day about pink/ redish skin tones. I borrowed his camera for fey days and I have to agree there is something strange about colors (comparing to M9 and highly personal opinion☺️ ) He owns also M9 and now is using almost exclusively M9, grabbing his m10 just for low light situations. That's why I was thinking of M 262. I can only suggest that you download as many RAW files from cameras that might want to buy as you can and run them through your own workflow to get a sense of what results you might reasonably expect to get if you were too buy one. This is of course far (very far) from ideal... people will have different lenses, you won’t necessarily have the sense of what the light/scene really looked like (as you weren’t there taking the picture) and also light varies around the globe and in different seasons But I think this is still better than looking on flickr... As I understand it (......) Leica made quite the attempt to emulate the M9 look with the m10, which I don’t think they did with the 240/262 cameras... Also worth noting that Leica is pretty in bed with Adobe.... that’s not to say that C1 or DxO whatever can’t make a good image with a Leica file, but my understanding is that Leica and Adobe work together (I might be wrong) And as I said in the one of the other threads we’ve both posted in The thing with the M9 (compared to the 240 and no doubt the other newer Ms) is the tonality. You mentioned the red dot forum 240: m9 emulation preset made by David Farkas. If you look at what that preset does (to get the pop of the m9 from the 240) it makes a few minor HSL changes, zero camera calibration changes and some massive tonality changes. As a crappy metaphor... The m9 is like a blockbuster movie dramatising someone’s life... it takes their career or achievements etc and crams it into 2 hours and dramatises it The M9 does this by cramming all the spark and light of life into approx 8 stops of dynamic range The modern cameras have 12+ stops of DR. They’re more epic length, nuanced movie makers I appreciate that makes little sense 😅 1 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted January 31, 2021 Share #24 Posted January 31, 2021 The profile is not the thing that creates the colour. There is the spectral transmission curve of the Bayer filter and the interpolating algorithm to create the colour data. I suspect that in this case the Bayer filter and possibly the IR filter are different. If the input is different and the profile the same the output will be different. Just look at the images: the colour differences are obvious. Edit: I see that Adam quoted an old post of mine saying the same thing. It is always nice to see that one agrees with oneself. 1 1 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobram Posted January 31, 2021 Author Share #25 Posted January 31, 2021 16 minutes ago, Adam Bonn said: I can only suggest that you download as many RAW files from cameras that might want to buy as you can and run them through your own workflow to get a sense of what results you might reasonably expect to get if you were too buy one. This is of course far (very far) from ideal... people will have different lenses, you won’t necessarily have the sense of what the light/scene really looked like (as you weren’t there taking the picture) and also light varies around the globe and in different seasons But I think this is still better than looking on flickr... As I understand it (......) Leica made quite the attempt to emulate the M9 look with the m10, which I don’t think they did with the 240/262 cameras... Also worth noting that Leica is pretty in bed with Adobe.... that’s not to say that C1 or DxO whatever can’t make a good image with a Leica file, but my understanding is that Leica and Adobe work together (I might be wrong) And as I said in the one of the other threads we’ve both posted in The thing with the M9 (compared to the 240 and no doubt the other newer Ms) is the tonality. You mentioned the red dot forum 240: m9 emulation preset made by David Farkas. If you look at what that preset does (to get the pop of the m9 from the 240) it makes a few minor HSL changes, zero camera calibration changes and some massive tonality changes. As a crappy metaphor... The m9 is like a blockbuster movie dramatising someone’s life... it takes their career or achievements etc and crams it into 2 hours and dramatises it The M9 does this by cramming all the spark and light of life into approx 8 stops of dynamic range The modern cameras have 12+ stops of DR. They’re more epic length, nuanced movie makers I appreciate that makes little sense 😅 Your suggestion is very reasonable. 1 photo is better than 1000 words😀 Do you know any good place where I can download more dng files? About C1: indeed Leica seem more connected with Adobe although by my personal experience (non scientific) C1 produce sharper and less noisy results... 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted January 31, 2021 Share #26 Posted January 31, 2021 I think that you will find that ACR 2021 and LRC 2021 have overtaken C1 and have similar or better colour control than C1, including grading by "wheel" diagrams and blending/balance sliders. Noise and sharpening handling has always been excellent but the out-of-the-box presets are less than optimal and must be modified by the user. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Bonn Posted January 31, 2021 Share #27 Posted January 31, 2021 Advertisement (gone after registration) I like c1, but I find it Leica unfriendly somehow... whatever, doesn’t matter https://www.photographyblog.com/reviews Are a good source of raw downloads, also dpreview. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeeUK Posted January 31, 2021 Share #28 Posted January 31, 2021 OK, This is a good example of why Leica should calculate the forward matrix in there profiles, it makes the biggest difference in images shot at D50 or below:- M10 Embedded:- Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! M10 Embedded + Forward Matrix 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! M10 Embedded + Forward Matrix ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/317448-color-rendition-of-m-240-vs-m-262/?do=findComment&comment=4129730'>More sharing options...
rpsawin Posted January 31, 2021 Share #29 Posted January 31, 2021 8 hours ago, jaapv said: Edit: I see that Adam quoted an old post of mine saying the same thing. It is always nice to see that one agrees with oneself. At the very least it indicates you are not a US politician. lol Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted January 31, 2021 Share #30 Posted January 31, 2021 7 hours ago, LeeUK said: OK, This is a good example of why Leica should calculate the forward matrix in there profiles, it makes the biggest difference in images shot at D50 or below:- M10 Embedded:- Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! M10 Embedded + Forward Matrix That is a convincing demonstration. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted February 1, 2021 Share #31 Posted February 1, 2021 While I've never seen it called "the forward matrix" (but hey, I learned camera profiling back in 2006), I have always created a separate profile for use under yellow (i.e. artificial indoor) lighting. As LeeUK's example shows, missing blue wavelengths don't just make the whole picture yellow. They also mess up the relationships between subtle colors - which is mostly what profiles are all about (reds to oranges, yellows to greens. blues to greens or purples). Remove the overall yellow cast, and the relationships are still messed up, unless one reprofiles with a color checker under yellow light. Today LED lighting is adding its own challenges - not as much consistency between manufacturers (yet), nor a perfect spectral match to traditional (energy-wasting) incandescent/tungsten/halogen lights. See final chart (6 panels): https://thegreensunshineco.com/think-beyond-white-led-and-bulb-grow-lights-kelvin-and-color-temperature/ Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobram Posted February 1, 2021 Author Share #32 Posted February 1, 2021 Dear All, Yesterday I performed a very interesting experiment. I downloaded M10 dng files from Dpreview and added some M 240 files I found online plus my own M-E220 and SL files. Need more M240 files to throughly judge this camera performance as well as M 262 files are needed. If anyone knows where I can find 262 DNG files online please paste link. Now to my very personal observations (again one photo is better than 1000 words :-) ): - M10 vs M 240 low light performance is incredible. Really. Very impressed by M10. - M 240 low light performance is better than M220 but not by big margin. - Malleability of files in Capture one: M10 very good, SL similar to M10, M 240 behind M10, M220 behind M10 and M 240 - Colors: M10 vs SL, similar but VERY important to me - SL exhibit much better skin tones. M 240 too yellow, pink, worst skin tones, difficult to correct without damaging other photo areas. M220 shines. SL vs M220: SL is better than M220, more "rounded" colors, perfect skin tones. M10 vs M220: M220 skin tones are still better, but on other aspects I think M10 wins. - POP (very personal opinion :-) ): all DNG files from any camera can pop it is just a matter of time and effort in post processing of dng files. M10, SL and M220 need much less time in Capture one to make photos pop. - B&W conversions: see POP (similar conclusion). My humble personal conclusions: - best camera for people and general photography: Leica SL - best rangefinder for people shots: ME220 (M9) - best rangefinder for general photography (travel, low light, people, family, landscape): M10 As I use rangefinder mostly for family / people photography I will wait until Leica improves skin tones :-) It is a shame they failed to reproduce SL skin tones in M10 (just my opinion :-) ) but I understand they wanted to achieve different look between SL vs M series. Still I must admit M10 is very capable camera with nice colors, very nice BW rendering and very good low light performance. I agree skin tones can be improved in post processing but still they are behind SL and M9. In next weeks I will perform similar experiment in Lightroom and I will try color checker. Maybe brownish or redish skin tones are related more to Capture One than M10... who knows :-) Thank you all for your contributions. Again M 262 dng files are wanted :-) 1 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Bonn Posted February 1, 2021 Share #33 Posted February 1, 2021 did you get the Jim Arnold hosted 262 dngs? 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobram Posted February 1, 2021 Author Share #34 Posted February 1, 2021 No. When I click on the link I get the message from dropbox: "This item was deleted" Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted February 1, 2021 Share #35 Posted February 1, 2021 58 minutes ago, Cobram said: - Colors: M10 vs SL, similar but VERY important to me - SL exhibit much better skin tones. M 240 too yellow, pink, worst skin tones, difficult to correct without damaging other photo areas. M220 shines. SL vs M220: SL is better than M220, more "rounded" colors, perfect skin tones. M10 vs M220: M220 skin tones are still better, but on other aspects I think M10 wins. I always have to ask "What are "perfect" or "better" skin tones?" Back in 2018, I happened to shoot a large group of people (in one picture). A wide range of genetic backgrounds - "white" or European-descent, Afro-American, Asian American, Native American, Latin-American. Out of curiosity, I sampled skin colors from the foreheads of 50 of them. Which of these are "perfect?" Why? According to whom? Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 3 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/317448-color-rendition-of-m-240-vs-m-262/?do=findComment&comment=4130691'>More sharing options...
Cobram Posted February 1, 2021 Author Share #36 Posted February 1, 2021 (edited) 22 minutes ago, adan said: I always have to ask "What are "perfect" or "better" skin tones?" Back in 2018, I happened to shoot a large group of people (in one picture). A wide range of genetic backgrounds - "white" or European-descent, Afro-American, Asian American, Native American, Latin-American. Out of curiosity, I sampled skin colors from the foreheads of 50 of them. Which of these are "perfect?" Why? According to whom? Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! I always have to point out :-) according to my opinion, my observation etc. :-) Just mine ☺️ Do you think all reviewers and critics in all fields, like photography, gadgets, music,... are really needed? Because they usually express their personal opinion... If I look at photo you posted, my first assumption will be too much cropped Pink Panther photo from old days Again just my very personal, just me in my galaxy, observation Edited February 1, 2021 by Cobram Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeeUK Posted February 1, 2021 Share #37 Posted February 1, 2021 (edited) 12 hours ago, adan said: While I've never seen it called "the forward matrix" (but hey, I learned camera profiling back in 2006), I have always created a separate profile for use under yellow (i.e. artificial indoor) lighting. As LeeUK's example shows, missing blue wavelengths don't just make the whole picture yellow. They also mess up the relationships between subtle colors - which is mostly what profiles are all about (reds to oranges, yellows to greens. blues to greens or purples). Remove the overall yellow cast, and the relationships are still messed up, unless one reprofiles with a color checker under yellow light. Today LED lighting is adding its own challenges - not as much consistency between manufacturers (yet), nor a perfect spectral match to traditional (energy-wasting) incandescent/tungsten/halogen lights. See final chart (6 panels): https://thegreensunshineco.com/think-beyond-white-led-and-bulb-grow-lights-kelvin-and-color-temperature/ A 'forward matrix' is part of the DNG standard, for some reason Leica did not include the values in there embebbed profiles. By adding them in it corrects many of the color problems reported by Leica users. Digital Negative Specification (DNG) (adobe.com) Edited February 1, 2021 by LeeUK 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobram Posted February 1, 2021 Author Share #38 Posted February 1, 2021 6 minutes ago, LeeUK said: A 'forward matrix' is part of the DNG standard, for some reason Leica did not include the values in there embebbed profiles. By adding them in it corrects many of the color problems reported by Leica users. Digital Negative Specification (DNG) (adobe.com) Very interesting. I'm total newbie regarding this topics. Maybe stupid questions: Can you help us and give us direction? What we have to do to correct profiles regarding forward matrix? Really appreciate your imput. Will this solution work also within Capture One? Thanks again. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeeUK Posted February 1, 2021 Share #39 Posted February 1, 2021 5 hours ago, Cobram said: Very interesting. I'm total newbie regarding this topics. Maybe stupid questions: Can you help us and give us direction? What we have to do to correct profiles regarding forward matrix? Really appreciate your imput. Will this solution work also within Capture One? Thanks again. No it will not work with C1. I am just collecting together all the Leica Embedded profiles, I will make the changes and post them on here. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobram Posted February 3, 2021 Author Share #40 Posted February 3, 2021 Very interesting view on the M9 vs M 240/ 262 topic. My conclusions are almost identical. https://gear.vogelius.se/-editorials/leica-m262-m9/index.html Now about 240 vs 262. There is a difference in color rendering. M262 color palette is much more similar to M10 than M240. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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