GFX100S vs SL2/X1D

[aksclix]

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4 hours ago, hamey said:

Really. DSLRs are near obsolete,I would have to agree with you especially the Leica S system.

But to what I was informed some time ago DSLR ARE STILL OUT SELLING THE MIRRORLESS CAMERAS.

Those numbers are made up by the beginner's market.. with DSLR kits selling under 500USD several people just buy them from Costco or whatever and may even be returning them.. To add to that, so many DSLRs have seen huge discounts because of the mirrorless market too.. A 50MP Canon 5DS selling for $1299!! Heck many would buy it just for keep sake!

That aside, how frequently are manufacturer's investing in the DSLR tech vs mirrorless today? I really loved my D4s and was reluctant to let it go but I had to do it last year otherwise it wouldn't sell for a price that it's really worth! 

 

4 hours ago, frame-it said:

come over for the Tokyo Olympics...you will see a lot of DLSR's , and probably some sony A1/A9's

am sure there are a lot of DSLRs still, not everyone is going to upgrade if they're happy with what they have and it still earns them money! Many like the OVFs over EVFs too.. why wouldn't they buy DSLRs if it does their job and at half the price of an equivalent mirrorless body today? That doesn't mean they're using the latest DSLR.. 5dMIV and D850 were the latest pro DSLRs? How long ago were they made? Will manufacturers be brave enough to make more? Maybe in limited quantities if they can make money out of it for the niche market it will soon become..  

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[Simone_DF]

FYI 

https://petapixel.com/2020/01/08/canon-done-making-ef-lenses-unless-photographers-demand-more/

[LocalHero1953]

7 hours ago, SJH said:

So the SL2 launches (I bought one in December 2019) with all the superb Leica attributes from colour science - to build - to a market leading EVF. I purchased some SL glass and could use my M lenses, I appreciated it didn’t have market leading AF but hey I really didn’t need extreme action performance. Spring forward to today and the market has changed dramatically as now Sony, Canon, Fuji MF and Nikon have all introduced camera’s only one year on that have around 50mb+, have market leading to superb EVF’s, far better menus than their systems in 2020 and the build has improved significantly as well. They’re all roughly priced at the same point as the SL2 now as well. It rather reminds me of the Fuji XH1 which went from being an £1,800 top of the line APSC camera at launch to something like £800 within 18 months as the competition (and the XT3 shot past it), timing is all as for example the Canon 5D MkIII (I loved that camera) launched at the right time and really didn’t have too much competition for sometime.

In reading this paragraph I had to remind myself it was not written in 2015 about the SL and the Sony A7 - change the model labels and I'm sure I read the same then. And yet Leica has seen the SL line as successful enough to invest in new models. 

[SJH]

3 hours ago, LocalHero1953 said:

In reading this paragraph I had to remind myself it was not written in 2015 about the SL and the Sony A7 - change the model labels and I'm sure I read the same then. And yet Leica has seen the SL line as successful enough to invest in new models. 

Well I’m not sure that quite holds true now

Personally I think the gap has narrowed considerably and the new 50mb camera’s and the GFXs are much closer or exceed the SL2 to a greater degree than the SL to A7 comparison in 2015. It seems this statement is a bit of time warp when the SL had clear water between it and many of it’s competitors at the time. That simply cannot be said of the ‘do it all’ camera’s of 2020 compared to the SL2, I don’t think this holds water at all.

Are your really saying the SL v A7 comparison is on a par with the SL2 v the A1, GFXs or R5 let alone the R1 and Z1 to come. I can really see the case for 2015 when the SL had a clear lead in many areas and the A7 was feeling its way but come on an SL2 v this lot is a whole different ball game. The last six months have not been kind to the SL2 and we have yet more delays on the 21 & 24mm SL lenses.

Don’t get me wrong I’m very much sticking with it for now but I grow more concerned that our significant investment is looking like a potential dead end unless both Leica and Panasonic in particular pull their socks up. If everyone in the Leica world just ‘sucks it up’ and doesn’t push Leica to innovate then the cause may well be lost over the next 18 months and we can all admire our very expensive lenses but kiss goodbye to anymore, let’s face it if Leica had Canon AF for example in its current bodies what a combination, what’s not to like about pushing the envelope here? 

You can do it Leica you really can and you’re so so close but take a lesson from the tech world and don’t become a Blackberry with the SL line and everyone living off nostalgia for something that’s passed. Believe me I really want you to make it so I’ve sold my SL2 and I’ve bought the SL2-S; backwards step maybe but it seems the sensor has more headroom for firmware updates and I’ve invested further today by adding the 90mm APO. I also cracked and bought an M10M just don’t let me down Leica, don’t let me down .........

Edited February 16, 2021 by SJH

[aksclix]

28 minutes ago, SJH said:

Well I’m not sure that quite holds true now

Personally I think the gap has narrowed considerably and the new 50mb camera’s and the GFXs are much closer or exceed the SL2 to a greater degree than the SL to A7 comparison in 2015. It seems this statement is a bit of time warp when the SL had clear water between it and many of it’s competitors at the time. That simply cannot be said of the ‘do it all’ camera’s of 2020 compared to the SL2, I don’t think this holds water at all.

Are your really saying the SL v A7 comparison is on a par with the SL2 v the A1, GFXs or R5 let alone the R1 and Z1 to come. I can really see the case for 2015 when the SL had a clear lead in many areas and the A7 was feeling its way but come on an SL2 v this lot is a whole different ball game. The last six months have not been kind to the SL2 and we have yet more delays on the 21 & 24mm SL lenses.

Don’t get me wrong I’m very much sticking with it for now but I grow more concerned that our significant investment is looking like a potential dead end unless both Leica and Panasonic in particular pull their socks up. If everyone in the Leica world just ‘sucks it up’ and doesn’t push Leica to innovate then the cause may well be lost over the next 18 months and we can all admire our very expensive lenses but kiss goodbye to anymore, let’s face it if Leica had Canon AF for example in its current bodies what a combination, what’s not to like about pushing the envelope here? 

You can do it Leica you really can and you’re so so close but take a lesson from the tech world and don’t become a Blackberry with the SL line and everyone living off nostalgia for something that’s passed. Believe me I really want you to make it so I’ve sold my SL2 and I’ve bought the SL2-S; backwards step maybe but it seems the sensor has more headroom for firmware updates and I’ve invested further today by adding the 90mm APO. I also cracked and bought an M10M just don’t let me down Leica, don’t let me down .........

I think the SL system is the future and will very much be alive! I just hope they make some great telephoto lenses.. I would love a mid range zoom with fast constant aperture.. like 90-180 f2.8 or 70-135 f2 😁 and a 400mm f4.. if they could make so many good lenses for the R, I can only imagine how their SL line up could be in 5-10 years! 

[Jeff S]

1 hour ago, aksclix said:

...if they could make so many good lenses for the R, I can only imagine how their SL line up could be in 5-10 years! 

I’m not sure using the the R as an example makes the strongest case for longevity or optimism.  😳

Jeff 

[frame-it]

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1 hour ago, aksclix said:

I think the SL system is the future and will very much be alive!

Also, i think the SL2/SL2-S will help create the mirrorless S4 in the future..

[aksclix]

36 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

I’m not sure using the the R as an example makes the strongest case for longevity or optimism.  😳

Jeff 

Oh why so? Was the R a failed system? I don’t know the history but I’ve seen and read in different places on the internet about some of the good R lenses. 

[Succisa75]

26 minutes ago, frame-it said:

Also, i think the SL2/SL2-S will help create the mirrorless S4 in the future..

While Leica makes some fantastic S line lenses, I think the future of the S series cameras will prob not be as bright as some hope.  Hasselblad isn’t really supporting the H line much now due to what some say is lack of demand, and Phase One while more advanced than any medium format system is facing some challenges from the Fujifilm GFX100 lineup. I don’t see how Leica can fit into the MF market now without a major revamp of the camera system. From a business angle will they be able to generate enough revenue to support the R&D costs and time needed? The SL line I hear is their future going forward so I think their resources will be for that vs another S camera. 

Edited February 17, 2021 by Succisa75

[aksclix]

27 minutes ago, frame-it said:

Also, i think the SL2/SL2-S will help create the mirrorless S4 in the future..

Definitely think so! I can only imagine how exotic it would look! I hope I have the money to get one right away when it does come out 

[Jeff S]

12 minutes ago, aksclix said:

Oh why so? Was the R a failed system? I don’t know the history but I’ve seen and read in different places on the internet about some of the good R lenses. 

It was a great system... right up to the day Leica abandoned it.  
 

Jeff

[Succisa75]

3 hours ago, aksclix said:

I think the SL system is the future and will very much be alive! I just hope they make some great telephoto lenses.. I would love a mid range zoom with fast constant aperture.. like 90-180 f2.8 or 70-135 f2 😁 and a 400mm f4.. if they could make so many good lenses for the R, I can only imagine how their SL line up could be in 5-10 years! 

Leica has stated they won’t invest in super telephoto lenses after the 90-280. Cost is too high and the return doesn’t make sense business wise. That’s where the L Mount alliance comes into play. They will fill the gaps Leica can’t. 

[frame-it]

2 hours ago, Succisa75 said:

While Leica makes some fantastic S line lenses, I think the future of the S series cameras will prob not be as bright as some hope.  Hasselblad isn’t really supporting the H line much now due to what some say is lack of demand, and Phase One while more advanced than any medium format system is facing some challenges from the Fujifilm GFX100 lineup. I don’t see how Leica can fit into the MF market now without a major revamp of the camera system. From a business angle will they be able to generate enough revenue to support the R&D costs and time needed? The SL line I hear is their future going forward so I think their resources will be for that vs another S camera. 

sure, but if one assumes the SL2 is a "trial run" for a mirrorless S4.....

[Succisa75]

1 hour ago, frame-it said:

sure, but if one assumes the SL2 is a "trial run" for a mirrorless S4.....

I highly doubt that. The MF market is too small and Leica hasn’t been aggressive in developing lenses to build it out 

[LocalHero1953]

11 hours ago, SJH said:

Well I’m not sure that quite holds true now

Personally I think the gap has narrowed considerably and the new 50mb camera’s and the GFXs are much closer or exceed the SL2 to a greater degree than the SL to A7 comparison in 2015. It seems this statement is a bit of time warp when the SL had clear water between it and many of it’s competitors at the time. That simply cannot be said of the ‘do it all’ camera’s of 2020 compared to the SL2, I don’t think this holds water at all.

Are your really saying the SL v A7 comparison is on a par with the SL2 v the A1, GFXs or R5 let alone the R1 and Z1 to come. I can really see the case for 2015 when the SL had a clear lead in many areas and the A7 was feeling its way but come on an SL2 v this lot is a whole different ball game. The last six months have not been kind to the SL2 and we have yet more delays on the 21 & 24mm SL lenses.

Don’t get me wrong I’m very much sticking with it for now but I grow more concerned that our significant investment is looking like a potential dead end unless both Leica and Panasonic in particular pull their socks up. If everyone in the Leica world just ‘sucks it up’ and doesn’t push Leica to innovate then the cause may well be lost over the next 18 months and we can all admire our very expensive lenses but kiss goodbye to anymore, let’s face it if Leica had Canon AF for example in its current bodies what a combination, what’s not to like about pushing the envelope here? 

You can do it Leica you really can and you’re so so close but take a lesson from the tech world and don’t become a Blackberry with the SL line and everyone living off nostalgia for something that’s passed. Believe me I really want you to make it so I’ve sold my SL2 and I’ve bought the SL2-S; backwards step maybe but it seems the sensor has more headroom for firmware updates and I’ve invested further today by adding the 90mm APO. I also cracked and bought an M10M just don’t let me down Leica, don’t let me down .........

It is certainly true that when the SL came out there were plenty of people saying it was behind the Sony A7 series, which was already on its second generation. The only obvious quantitative measure where the SL excelled over the A7 was in the EVF - not pixels, not AF. (Fortunately there were plenty of less quantitative measures as well.) Everyone has their own criteria on how to judge a camera, so I'm not going to comment on how the SL2 & SL2-S stack up against the mainstream players, but the language used about Leica's future prospects is the same as when the SL was launched.

I'm assuming from your writing about 'investment' that you are a pro. I'm glad to say that my future income is not dependent on buying the right camera (or any camera) - I invest in products with more predictable returns😉. Since the only 'return' I look for on my 'investment' is the ability to keep taking photographs, and the SL2-S hasn't changed as a result of other brands stepping up, then I don't see the loss on investment or 'dead end'. I shall keep looking at other cameras as they are launched to see if they have bright new features that I might find useful, but those don't include faster AF than we have now, or more pixels; the Sigma fp covers my video needs better for the moment and until those change I wouldn't buy a more video-capable Leica anyway. As for 'medium format', I'll wait till real medium format (6x4.5cm minimum) becomes an affordable reality - that would be nice! But by then I'll probably be too old and feeble to carry the inevitably monstrous lenses.

Edited February 17, 2021 by LocalHero1953

[SJH]

3 hours ago, LocalHero1953 said:

It is certainly true that when the SL came out there were plenty of people saying it was behind the Sony A7 series, which was already on its second generation. The only obvious quantitative measure where the SL excelled over the A7 was in the EVF - not pixels, not AF. (Fortunately there were plenty of less quantitative measures as well.) Everyone has their own criteria on how to judge a camera, so I'm not going to comment on how the SL2 & SL2-S stack up against the mainstream players, but the language used about Leica's future prospects is the same as when the SL was launched.

I'm assuming from your writing about 'investment' that you are a pro. I'm glad to say that my future income is not dependent on buying the right camera (or any camera) - I invest in products with more predictable returns😉. Since the only 'return' I look for on my 'investment' is the ability to keep taking photographs, and the SL2-S hasn't changed as a result of other brands stepping up, then I don't see the loss on investment or 'dead end'. I shall keep looking at other cameras as they are launched to see if they have bright new features that I might find useful, but those don't include faster AF than we have now, or more pixels; the Sigma fp covers my video needs better for the moment and until those change I wouldn't buy a more video-capable Leica anyway. As for 'medium format', I'll wait till real medium format (6x4.5cm minimum) becomes an affordable reality - that would be nice! But by then I'll probably be too old and feeble to carry the inevitably monstrous lenses.

All very valid points around your own criteria of course, I was trying to come away from yours or mine and look at a more general commercial outlook and development/investment for the SL range. However, whilst you and I might not say we need 100mb or faster AF with animal tracking for example, these things now exist in camera's that haven't quite matched Leica for colour science, handling, lenses etc but they've come a lot closer than back in 2015. These things do matter to the wider market unless of course Leica's plan is really just to sell to a fairly limited range of people and in small numbers, this may make sense for them and they could have decided that they make enough margin this way for the SL to remain positioned as it is now. But just look at all the Leica YouTubes for the SL2-S, they often contain 20/30 somethings doing video and stills as a hybrid so they must be targeting this segment as why else publish this content.

In conclusion I believe there is a higher degree of risk now for Leica and existing SL owners now because of the performance of the A1, R5 etc etc but that doesn't mean we of course can't carry on using these wonderful camera's and enjoying/delivering the results. I'd just like to see more people pushing Leica in areas where they are lagging a bit now whilst being very strong advocates of the brand, culture, camera's and lenses 

[LocalHero1953]

15 minutes ago, SJH said:

All very valid points around your own criteria of course, I was trying to come away from yours or mine and look at a more general commercial outlook and development/investment for the SL range. However, whilst you and I might not say we need 100mb or faster AF with animal tracking for example, these things now exist in camera's that haven't quite matched Leica for colour science, handling, lenses etc but they've come a lot closer than back in 2015. These things do matter to the wider market unless of course Leica's plan is really just to sell to a fairly limited range of people and in small numbers, this may make sense for them and they could have decided that they make enough margin this way for the SL to remain positioned as it is now. But just look at all the Leica YouTubes for the SL2-S, they often contain 20/30 somethings doing video and stills as a hybrid so they must be targeting this segment as why else publish this content.

In conclusion I believe there is a higher degree of risk now for Leica and existing SL owners now because of the performance of the A1, R5 etc etc but that doesn't mean we of course can't carry on using these wonderful camera's and enjoying/delivering the results. I'd just like to see more people pushing Leica in areas where they are lagging a bit now whilst being very strong advocates of the brand, culture, camera's and lenses 

I think Leica's main aim is twofold: to maximise profits and, because they are a company made up of human beings, to make cameras and lenses with a certain attraction to a certain type of photographer like themselves. I don't think their main aim is to maximise sales. As far as we can tell, Leica has been successful in achieving its aims, while seeing many other brands fall by the wayside (they might have included Leica before the M8/M9). There is still some question about which brands actually make a profit from their camera divisions. 

As for the 20/30 somethings in youtube adverts, I am 100% certain that they are shown because the middle aged and old buyers think they are still that age, or would like to be. In the same way as adverts showing cameras being used in war zones are not targeted at war photographers.

Edited February 17, 2021 by LocalHero1953

[Succisa75]

42 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

I think Leica's main aim is twofold: to maximise profits and, because they are a company made up of human beings, to make cameras and lenses with a certain attraction to a certain type of photographer like themselves. I don't think their main aim is to maximise sales. As far as we can tell, Leica has been successful in achieving its aims, while seeing many other brands fall by the wayside (they might have included Leica before the M8/M9). There is still some question about which brands actually make a profit from their camera divisions. 

As for the 20/30 somethings in youtube adverts, I am 100% certain that they are shown because the middle aged and old buyers think they are still that age, or would like to be. In the same way as adverts showing cameras being used in war zones are not targeted at war photographers.

Part of Leica’s second wind in the digital arena is the introduction of the Q. This camera in a way “saved” leica. The M was too expensive for many, the S was out of reach for only the fortunate few. The smaller Panasonic/leica cameras did ok, but it was the Q that changed things quite a bit. 
All companies want to maximise profits. Without that they don’t survive. 
As for the younger adverts prob part of that is to attract middle age buyers so they feel young, but also educate and create brand awareness to the younger market that aren’t familiar with Leica. 
You would be surprised how little the young market knows of Leica. They may have seen it in a Huawei phone or Insta360 but they aren’t familiar with the history and the cameras. Their favourite YouTubers and instagrammers use Sony, Canon, Nikon and maybe fujifilm. These companies are aggressive in getting the cameras in these “influencers” hands and thus they build momentum. Leica hasn’t taken that path.  While it’s understandable as they are a luxury brand in many ways and they prob want to attract a more mature and financially established crowd, they also need to plant the seed of Leica and educate the younger photographers/ videographers who share their content on YouTube, FB and Instagram. 

Edited February 17, 2021 by Succisa75

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[LocalHero1953]

Odd - I have never thought of the Q as 'saving' Leica - and we're all guessing in this regard. I saw the T as saving Leica, despite its current languishing position, because it introduced the L-mount, which even then was obviously full-frame-capable. Certainly the Q appears to have been successful, but the L-mount has enabled not just the SL, but the CL, L-mount alliance and all the Leica L-mount lenses.

Edited February 17, 2021 by LocalHero1953

[aksclix]

Yea the Leica T was a turning point for sure! 

Coming to think of the title of this topic though, I am not sure I like the GFX 100s pricing.. everybody is going to wind up with one it looks like..  preorders have already gone ahead of their expectations.