Older models: Elmarit 21mm and Summicron 90mm

[Tulpenwahn]

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Dear Forum,

I am considering buying a Leica Elmarit 21mm from 1995 and a Leica Summicron 90mm from 1983 on the second-hand market. Regardless of the actual condition of the lenses, how big are the differences in quality compared to the newer models (especially ASPH)? 

I would have to pay 1700 € for both. Is that reasonable in principle? (I already realise that such a general statement is difficult to make; therefore: is the price direction correct?)

Thank you.

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[Ernstk]

I use the 2.8/21 Elmarit M for probably 75% of all of my photos. It's a lovely lens and renders really nicely with a digital sensor. 

I can't compare it to the more modern 21s as I have no experience of them. I would expect to pay around 900-1000 Euros.

Here's a shot from the 21 Elmarit, with an M-P 240

Ernst

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[Tulpenwahn]

vor 7 Minuten schrieb Tulpenwahn:

Dear Forum,

I am considering buying a Leica Elmarit 21mm from 1995 and a Leica Summicron 90mm from 1983 on the second-hand market. Regardless of the actual condition of the lenses, how big are the differences in quality compared to the newer models (especially ASPH)? 

I would have to pay 1700 € for both. Is that reasonable in principle? (I already realise that such a general statement is difficult to make; therefore: is the price direction correct?)

Thank you.

I should add: I would like to use them on the M9 and the M10 Monochrome...

[a.noctilux]

9 minutes ago, Tulpenwahn said:

I should add: I would like to use them on the M9 and the M10 Monochrome...

Go for them.

For me they would be good enough, even if those later asph. model would be better performer (on paper),

but older lenses without asph. elements give me more pleasing pictures (difficult to explain, so don't ask me why).

Hard to believe, I at once had used some "asph. lenses", but now I prefer those older non-asph. models.

[AndreasG]

See #170 here:

 

[lct]

I have no experience with 21/2.8 pre-asph lenses, only 21/2.8 asph sorry. As for the 90/2 you're after it is a v3 if it is from 1983. It has the same size as the current 90/2 apo then. Compared to the later, the v3 is a bit softer at full aperture which makes it an excellent lens for portraiture if you don't want to display the small skin imperfections of your models too much. Only significant problem with v3 is CA but it can be fixed mostly in PP. Beware that 90/2 v3 are lenses made for film which may need some calibration for digital given their short DoF at full aperture. I would check that focusing is OK on the model you're after. 

Edited January 26, 2021 by lct

[luigi bertolotti]

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Having both 21 2,8 (asph and not) I can say that for that cost is definitely a set to buy.  The Summicron is , as said above, a lens someway critical to use wide open... but I have not the APO version to compare... much praised but also a very costly item even if used.  If the offer is indivisible, I'd say it's a good deal... as a side consideration, in stricts terms probably the "best buy" for a used 90 can be today the Summarit 2,5. 

[adan]

Oddly, those are the very first two M lenses I bought in 2001. And the specific lenses that attracted me away for Kyocera/Contax/Zeiss G lenses.

They make an excellent pairing since they were both introduced virtually simultaneously in a major revision of the M lens line-up around 1980, with engineering by Dr. Walter Mandler at Leitz Canada.

And thus share a signature style - specifically, a slight cyan-greener (less magenta) color rendering, and a lower global contrast, than Leica lenses designed post-1990 (APO/ASPH era). I found those characteristics to be important on color slide film - and later on digital. They remind me of my all-time favorite SLR lenses of the 1970s - Canon FDs. Except sharper.

BTW those characteristics are the same regardless of the era or location of manufacture - the cosmetics changed a bit between 1980/Canada and their end in the late 1990s/Solms, but not the optics.

The crop and full frame below were made (on M10) with my very-early production 90mm v.3 f/2.0, adjusted and 6-bit coded by Leica last year. I would not call it "soft" in resolution at f/2 and this distance (approx 6-7m?) but under 2.5m it does start to have more of a "soft sharpness," as lct mentions. And as luigi mentions, is critical to focus at f/2. And the lower contrast makes for a less "punchy" look viewed small (while still showing good detail under close examination).

The bokeh is a milder version of the very creamy, soft bokeh of its legendary 1980 sister, the 75mm f/1.4.

This example also reveals the occasional chromatic aberration at f/2 (red outlines/fringes to bolts or highlights wide-open.

The 90mm is a bit heavy for an M lens at 450-490g (early/late production) although smaller and lighter than the predecessor 'stovepipe" 90 Summicrons, and very slightly lighter than the APO-Summicron-M-ASPH.

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Another (above, M10) with the 90mm Summicron-M, showing the "Mandler" color handling of greens and cyans, and also the background rendering and separation at f/2.

While I have had several v.3 90mm Summicron-Ms (I keep swapping back and forth for the feather-light 225g 90mm Tele-Elmarit-M f/2.8), I have now returned to the Summicron permanently.

And in 20 years I have never used any 21mm except the Elmarit-M. I have just found nothing to match its warm rich National-Geographic color and subtle tonal range.

(M9 photo, Montreal, Quebec, 2016)

 

Edited January 27, 2021 by adan

[adan]

I will mention that the 21 in particular (like all M-mount 21mm lenses) will need either 6-bit coding, or careful selection in the menu, when used on an M9 for color pictures.

Otherwise it will produce asymmetric pink/cyan "vignetting" at the long ends of the pictures (<<Italienisches Flaggen-Syndrom>>), due to an interaction between its wide focal length design from 40 years ago, and digital sensor microstructure (leakage of filtered light to neighboring pixels of other colors).

My 21mm Elmarit-M was the very first lens I sent to Leica to have the coding added, in 2007 for the M8 camera.

This is an Jan. 2010 example with a very early M9, before Leica had perfected the firmware corrections for the larger 24x36mm CCD. And on a sensitive subject - white snow.

The 2016 example in my previous post shows how much the firmware programming was improved soon thereafter. But the camera must "know" which lens is in use.

On a Monochrom, the color troubles are, of course, non-existent.

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Edited January 27, 2021 by adan

[Tulpenwahn]

vor einer Stunde schrieb adan:

I will mention that the 21 in particular (like all M-mount 21mm lenses) will need either 6-bit coding, or careful selection in the menu, when used on an M9 for color pictures.

Otherwise it will produce asymmetric pink/cyan "vignetting" at the long ends of the pictures (<<Italienisches Flaggen-Syndrom>>), due to an interaction between its wide focal length design from 40 years ago, and digital sensor microstructure (leakage of filtered light to neighboring pixels of other colors).

My 21mm Elmarit-M was the very first lens I sent to Leica to have the coding added, in 2007 for the M8 camera.

This is an Jan. 2010 example with a very early M9, before Leica had perfected the firmware corrections for the larger 24x36mm CCD. And on a sensitive subject - white snow.

The 2016 example in my previous post shows how much the firmware programming was improved soon thereafter. But the camera must "know" which lens is in use.

On a Monochrom, the color troubles are, of course, non-existent.

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

 

vor 1 Stunde schrieb adan:

Oddly, those are the very first two M lenses I bought in 2001. And the specific lenses that attracted me away for Kyocera/Contax/Zeiss G lenses.

They make an excellent pairing since they were both introduced virtually simultaneously in a major revision of the M lens line-up around 1980, with engineering by Dr. Walter Mandler at Leitz Canada.

And thus share a signature style - specifically, a slight cyan-greener (less magenta) color rendering, and a lower global contrast, than Leica lenses designed post-1990 (APO/ASPH era). I found those characteristics to be important on color slide film - and later on digital. They remind me of my all-time favorite SLR lenses of the 1970s - Canon FDs. Except sharper.

BTW those characteristics are the same regardless of the era or location of manufacture - the cosmetics changed a bit between 1980/Canada and their end in the late 1990s/Solms, but not the optics.

The crop and full frame below were made (on M10) with my very-early production 90mm v.3 f/2.0, adjusted and 6-bit coded by Leica last year. I would not call it "soft" in resolution at f/2 and this distance (approx 6-7m?) but under 2.5m it does start to have more of a "soft sharpness," as lct mentions. And as luigi mentions, is critical to focus at f/2. And the lower contrast makes for a less "punchy" look viewed small (while still showing good detail under close examination).

The bokeh is a milder version of the very creamy, soft bokeh of its legendary 1980 sister, the 75mm f/1.4.

This example also reveals the occasional chromatic aberration at f/2 (red outlines/fringes to bolts or highlights wide-open.

The 90mm is a bit heavy for an M lens at 450-490g (early/late production) although smaller and lighter than the predecessor 'stovepipe" 90 Summicrons, and very slightly lighter than the APO-Summicron-M-ASPH.

Another (above, M10) with the 90mm Summicron-M, showing the "Mandler" color handling of greens and cyans, and also the background rendering and separation at f/2.

While I have had several v.3 90mm Summicron-Ms (I keep swapping back and forth for the feather-light 225g 90mm Tele-Elmarit-M f/2.8), I have now returned to the Summicron permanently.

And in 20 years I have never used any 21mm except the Elmarit-M. I have just found nothing to match its warm rich National-Geographic color and subtle tonal range.

(M9 photo, Montreal, Quebec, 2016)

 

Oh, wow, what a coincidence! Seems, that I have done everything right: finally bought those lenses. Thanks a lot for the detailed insights. Looking very much forward to seeing the National-Geographic color;-) I will keep you posted.