Voigtlander Nokton 35mm f1.4ii or Ultron 35mm f2

[giannis]

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17 hours ago, Harpomatic said:

I will refrain from saying that again in the future then.

You shouldn't. I agree with you wholeheartedly. It's good to know how lenses perform objectively, but it's also good to know that the effects on the final image with regards to impact and appreciation are marginal or non-existent. I'm not talking about which focal length you use or what aperture, which obviously changes the image substantially. I'm talking same focal length, same aperture, but this vs that brand or this vs that version.

Appreciating lenses is fine. I got into photography almost by accident, as a side project project in Uni (I studied mathematics), that was about differential equations of higher order and their applications. It just so happened that my "case study" was optical systems and raytracing with regards to lens design, i.e. how optical aberrations work and what kind of equations you solve, usually numerically, to perform aberration correction and optimisation. So I do have great appreciation and understanding for the technical side of it, as well as the hard and ingenious work of the very bright optical designers. But it's a different thing to delude myself that any lens or film made in the last 30 years will make or break a photo.

I have seen exhibitions and prints and I have shown some of my own to people, many of them hobbyist photographers. When asked about which photos stood out to them from an "image quality" perspective, the large format ones would be picked consistently over 35mm, the medium format ones (6x6, 6x9) half of the time, but between different lenses on the same 35mm format? It was a wash, there wasn't anything clearly standing out at all. So my anecdotal experience and estimation is, you need to jump up a format if you want things to stand out in a mixed gallery of prints.

I like lenses and I'm intrigued by optical advances. But this is a hobby on its own, and all is fine and well as long as people keep it at that and don't extrapolate/imply this has obvious repercussions on the photography side of things. If they do make such implications, then they'll get the same and opposite reaction by people who will say it doesn't matter at all. So let's appreciate the hobby - be it photography, camera design, lens design - for what it is. And if we want to make implications and extrapolations about a different aspect that are not warrantied, we should similarly expect opposite viewpoints and be tolerant to them.

 

Also to keep it on topic, OP there's another lens to consider if you haven't already. Especially if you value a technically good lens with good performance across the spectrum with regards to sharpness, (lack of) distortion, flatness of field, flare resistance,  and even bokeh. That's the f/1.7 ultron. It has a great combination of good qualities which are not easy to find (usually in such lenses bokeh suffers, in this case not only it doesn't suffer but it's actually good!). The only potential issue is ergonomics. But I believe to date it's the best 35mm lens Voigtlander has produced (barring the announced Apo-lanthar of which I know nothing about), and it's up there with the f/2 Biogon by Zeiss, if not better. The f/2 versions were an optical "downgrade" for the sake of size and weight as well as ergonomics. Or maybe because Voigtlander was paving the way for the apo-lanthar, so they decided for market segmentation to have an "all-out" great technical lens (apo-lanthar) and a smaller, cheaper and optically less performant lens (ultron). In such a product lineup the f/1.7 ultron, with it's increased weight/bulk *and* optical performance, would stand somewhere in the middle muddying the waters. In any case, check it you if you haven't already.

Edited March 13, 2021 by giannis
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[SoarFM]

On 3/12/2021 at 10:44 AM, Steven said:

Yes we all know that a good lens doesnt can make a bad photo, and that a good photographer doesnt need a good lens to make a good photo. GRANTED.

A corollary is that “It’s all about the light...” As if, the lens and camera (and perhaps film) are merely incidental to the capture of the light!

Great film makers obsess over the gear and lenses that are used in their productions because the “look” matters, even in the presence of great dialogue, actors and  settings.

[giannis]

14 minutes ago, SoarFM said:

“It’s all about the light...”

Of course. Try to capture a studio portrait just with your camera or onboard flash. No matter what camera you use and how expensive the camera or great the lens, you won't get nearly as good a result as a cheap camera and lens paired with a softbox or two. Let alone if you start using gels, grids, multiple lights etc. It's all about capturing light, and if the light quality isn't there it barely matters what you're using to capture it. 

For photography I'd say it goes like: subject matter>light>composition>everything else. This is what I'm attracted to in a photo, what intrigues the eye most and guides the brain. Of course it's not an absolute strict rule, for instance the patterns of light creating lines and shapes can be an integral part of your composition, as it many times is. But as a rough rule, it works.

[Guest]

7 hours ago, mheine said:

Thank you for the compliment - dunno if I know exactly what I am doing but I take that, haha! 😁

That 90% blurry shots statement counts for every fast manual lens but especially the Noctilux because of its aperture value. It just looks like that many pay those high prices to get a kind of acceptance from the community because they are using the latest and greatest (expensive) stuff from Leica. I don't want to sound rude again but taking some snaps of your cat with a 15k+ equipment is just ridiculous, to be honest. The Leica marketing department is doing a great job to push people to buy such expensive gear without using it for professional work but snapshots.

I prefer the Voigtlander Nokton 35mm f1.4 over all the Chinese branded lenses because of the smaller package, handling and of course the character (nervous bokeh, soft, flares, distortion, vignette).

And I think gear is important in some way, I won't get the same kind of images with an iPhone, that's sure. But I have the feeling that too much people are throwing their money on expensive camera stuff and think it will have a massive impact on their images. Just by having a sharper, "perfect lens" your imagination won't level up.

So, better optical quality / gear won't fix shitty images (that we all take).
 

… or some are smart enough and don't spend their hard earned money on overhyped lenses. I take the Nokton 35mm f1.4 all day over the new APO Summicron for example. 😜
 

Some people on here and in life are very wealthy and its all too easy to lash out at them for buying very expensive lenses to photograph their cat or anything else they fancy photographing,

This is a good thread and the nokton especially is an interesting lens but i still think the high end expensive lenses are important for leica to thrive/survive in difficult times for camera manufacturers.

[astrostl]

7 hours ago, Steven said:

I bought it because it produces an overall look (similar than the Q2) where things look so real that the subjects have a very 3D pop effect. For street photography, and landscapes, I am a fan of this look...I didn't need a perfect lens. I wanted the look it produces. Thats it. 

Okay, technically not a preorder but it still sounds like a blind buy. Which is fine and perfectly understandable if so! Just quite a post hoc narrative.

[Guest]

Rendering and ergonomics are very subjective in my view.

My 35mm f1.4 distagon is very ergonomically friendly for me with my fairly big clumsy hands plus i can just grip the lens barrel like i always did with my old minolta cameras and not mess about with those dreadful tab things.

Its still much smaller than those ridiculous massive A-F SLR and most EVF mirroless cameras when paired with my m262 body.

Any suggestion that its a modern clinical lens i totally reject as i love the way it renders people and places although i would agree it can be too sharp for older female adults which luckily i seldom photograph.

When i show my adult children images taken with the distagon,my summicrom v5 and my thin 90mm tele-elmarit they almost always like the distagon pics best.

So with my tongue slightly in my cheek i would say to the op get the distagon instead,

[Ray Vonn]

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3 hours ago, steve 1959 said:

Any suggestion that its a modern clinical lens i totally reject

Not sure I’ve ever seen that said about this lens.

[otto.f]

19 hours ago, mheine said:

an overkill if not used for professional stuff

I doubt whether many professionals would agree, unless their client would ask for it to show off and tell stories around the results. It could be just as well the other way around: what professional on earth would buy this for his/her day to day work? A used FLE could be even nicer for weddings 

[otto.f]

2 hours ago, Ray Vonn said:

Not sure I’ve ever seen that said about this lens.

From what I’ve seen thus far here and from Reid, I must say that I don’t put it in the same category as the APO 50 which comes across more razor sharp and thus more ‘modern’  than the 35APO which shows to me a more smooth transition toward the unfocused parts of the image. Which is not the same as the bokeh in itself being beautiful in both.  But your eyes may vary of course. 

[otto.f]

2 minutes ago, otto.f said:

From what I’ve seen thus far here and from Reid, I must say that I don’t put it in the same category as the APO 50 which comes across more razor sharp and thus more ‘modern’  than the 35APO which shows to me a more smooth transition toward the unfocused parts of the image. Which is not the same as the bokeh in itself being beautiful in both.  But your eyes may vary of course. 

And it’s still just 35mm format. For that money I would go for a used Leica S with a 70, professional or not. 

[SoarFM]

19 hours ago, steve 1959 said:

Some people on here and in life are very wealthy and its all too easy to lash out at them for buying very expensive lenses to photograph their cat or anything else they fancy photographing,

This is a good thread and the nokton especially is an interesting lens but i still think the high end expensive lenses are important for leica to thrive/survive in difficult times for camera manufacturers.

I have an order in for the Noctilux 😳. I don’t consider myself very wealthy and feel a little self conscious with the amount of money I spent on the M and a couple lenses this year, I continuously have doubts as to whether I should cancel my order. But I have been working continuously for the last 43 years, more if you count my high school jobs which included full time summer work in furniture factories. Does that mean I deserve to shoot with Leica’s? Of course not. I am extremely fortunate that I can do this without shortchanging anybody that depends on me. I am also keenly aware that my years on this earth are not unlimited and whether or not I produce any work that any serious people will ever admire I derive a great deal of satisfaction from my photography, I enjoy the craft and the art. My father is 94 years old and while he also practiced photography and used my darkroom and then went to digital, alas he is no longer able to do any of this. You may not be able to practice this art until the day you die... Remember that.

On a less serious note. I also have 2 Noktons. The 50/1.2, the  35/1.2. I also have the 50/2.0 APO Lanthar. They are all cracking good lenses, really good, but I might not be as attuned as some of you. The 50/1.2 really has me rethinking the Noctilux purchase and the APO Lanthar has allayed my yen for an APO Summicron. My kit is fully operational and not limiting, time to think less of gear and more about photographs.

[lct]

Funny that Leica made a masterwork lens like the 35/2 apo and some Leica users are looking for excuses to purchase it. Déjà vu with the 50/2 apo already but not that much with 90/1.5 or 75/1.25 lenses. More glass for the money i suspect. "Darling, look at the big lens i've just bought. No that expensive for the weight is it"

[Guest]

15 hours ago, otto.f said:

And it’s still just 35mm format. For that money I would go for a used Leica S with a 70, professional or not. 

Is the S equally portable compared to an M ?

I know it has a slightly bigger sensor.

Edited March 14, 2021 by steve 1959

[Guest]

19 hours ago, Ray Vonn said:

Not sure I’ve ever seen that said about this lens.

Neither have i but it was just in case anyone did say such a thing.☺️

[otto.f]

6 hours ago, steve 1959 said:

Is the S equally portable compared to an M ?

 

No, but it was in the context of the question what a professional might do if he had 8000$ to spend on gear. 

[Guest]

5 hours ago, otto.f said:

No, but it was in the context of the question what a professional might do if he had 8000$ to spend on gear. 

Possibly true but some professionals use micro four thirds cameras.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, steve 1959 said:

Possibly true but some professionals use micro four thirds cameras.

True........one of my most useful cameras is an "old" Panasonic GH4, and it's proved to be a really good purchase over time. I've used it primarily for "B" camera pick-ups / film production, scouting locations and rehearsals, and doc's etc, and also for personal stills. And even though I've disliked pretty much any EVF I've ever looked through the GH4's EVF is still pretty damn good compared to many including the SL's.

[mheine]

To make things clear again, I don't want to attack anyone with his buying decisions. It just looks like that a lot of people think that "better" equipment will get them better results. By "better" I mean sharper, more perfect rendering but as already mentioned, getting yourself the so called "best equipment" won't fix your vision. 

A lot of my followed Leica photographers on Instagram buy (or at least they want to) themself so much equipment, always the latest and greatest stuff (if they pulled the trigger and don't tell it personally, they surely show it in their stories --> show offs because who cares?) and at the end, they get desperate because the shots they get don't change (surprise). 

I would always prefer to start with "cheap" equipment and get something better if it suits my style and you actually need it but not just it's new and shiny in the store window. There are a lot people that don't like the Voigtlander 35mm f1.4 Nokton rendering and I understand this, I wouldn't use the lens for "high quality" work either. But for memories, traveling, street photography, lifestyle, hanging around with friends - it's such a lovely little lens that brings decent shots pretty often more to live because of its flaws. 

For me, the APO Summicron is overhyped because I still don't get who (really) needs such lenses on a M, that 0.3m focus mechanic looks awful, LiveView sucks in my opinion on my M10 and you only get its "trademark" rendering (shooting wide open) when you perfectly nail the focus. And every stuff you shoot on higher aperture values kills even more the reason to pick this lens. But! Respect goes to Leica to put built a high class lens like this in a small package, nice!

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[Cobram]

My wife don't care about photography gear...

About a half a year ago I was thinking to sell my 50 ASPH Lux and invest in additional Fuji (low budget, walkaround stuff). When my wife discovered my intensions she was terrified and prohibited me to sell any Leica lens. She adores Lux 50 and Cron 28 family pics. She claims photos from both mentioned lenses are best of all family photos we have. I used to own Fuji/Olympus/Sony.... before and she knows very well when I transitioned to Leica.

[mheine]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb Steven:

We don't buy things because we think it will give us "better results". We buy things because we think it will give us results that we will love and enjoy more. What's the problem with that ? We don't buy it with your money do we ? 

 

I care, many care, and visibly you care, because you come hang in forums where we "show off" what we buy. 

 

Says you. 

 

You're contradicting yourself now. Not coherent with what you said earlier. 

 

This is just your opinion, and to be honest, at this point you just sound a bit bitter mate. Sorry to get worked up, but I'm just so sick of people who come polluting threads with their "its not the gear, its the photographer" or "a better lens won't make you a better photographer". If you dont like gear talk, why do you come on LUF? Nothing personal mate, but you gotta let people enjoy their stuff. I have an APO and two Noktons (along with other 35s) and it just works for me. I understand you cant understand that, but understand that you need to understand 🤪 

Dude, seriously, relax I don't attack anyone, I just don't get why spending all that money for something that doesn't change anything (for the most ones). The APO Summicron is just another 35mm f2.0 - only sharper, more "clinical", technically almost perfect(?) - but still nothing that will rescue your images when missed focussed or badly composed. And I know unfortunately a lot people that think that lenses like this will fix problems like bad composing / light situations and so on.
And I said more than once that I don't want to offend anyone with their buying decisions. So, don't get rude just because you don't understand what my actual point is. 🙂

Honestly, if you think showing off your camera gear on forums / Instagram is "cool" than I don't know (except when people are asking for information / images). I think the things you do with your equipment is way more interesting than just showing cameras / lenses. And yes, I hang on this forum because some are more interested in the topic general photography, needing help and not the gear talking thing. My first reason why I joined this forum was because my shiny new Leica had problems since the beginning. 😉 
And originally, this post was about a lens decision and I recommend(ed) the Nokton a lot, even I have a "way better" ZEISS. And speaking about those "gear heads": When I see people on Instagram repeatedly reposting their new M10 Reporter (for example) almost everyday and type "shot on M10 Reporter" than it looks embarrassing to me and I am not jealously, not a tiny bit. Somehow, I am more sorry for those gear heads that they desperately need to tell everyone more than once that they own something just to get their 15min of fame. As a note, I am super young and bought two Leicas on my own, something a lot of people will dream a whole life but I don't feel better because of them.

And yes, the shot's won't get any better (they may look different) because surprisingly most (about 8 / 10) of these purchases will land on Ebay just a couple of weeks later, so they don't look that satisfied. 

Where do I contradicting myself? As said, the M (for me) is all about "snaps" where the moment counts, not the "image quality" (so much). So, I don't get why spending so much money on a manual lens when you probably won't get every shot nailed (focussed correctly). This is why lenses like the Voigtlander Nokton comes around the corner, a lovely, tiny lens that has character and is pretty versatile by all its attributes and doesn't cost that much, so, you're more forgiving if your shots won't be perfectly nailed. And there are other great, fairly priced lenses - it doesn't have to be Leica lens at all. 
And when I see the thread "Noctilux shots wide-open" (I was interested to see how a lens with an aperture less than f1.4 renders), 90% of the shots look like they were shot on a lens that doesn't cost 8k+, more like 600 bucks because mostly nothing is sharp, a lot of glows, distortion and the the focus is off almost all the time (of course, f0.95 and manual focus sounds super hard).

And lastly: I am not saying that equipment is not important, not at any point. Like I said before, I know I won't get the same results with my iPhone and I like to have a "real" camera in my hands. I love my Leica because of it's size and the M especially for the handling. But when it comes to lenses, focal lengths stay the same; yes, one lens is sharper / better corrected than the other but still it all comes to the image itself. You can tell a story with a cheap Chinese lens or a Summilux but the "message" in that image won't be such a different because they render different. Let's be honest, a super sharp, corrected image (especially for female portraits) looks mostly a bit flat / boring, too clinical where a lens with character can give an image an nice addition. So, I consider the APO Summicron as a perfect lens for stuff where perfection is meaningful (product photography, big prints, fashion, maybe wedding) but not for walks with your family & friends. 🙂

So, please don't argue - we both have our opinion and I respect yours, I just want to save people for spending that kind of money and tell them that they can take superb images with a reasonably priced equipment and don't put themself into debt. 

He sums this topic (unfortunately it's in German) pretty good: 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xjxUWBaQhc

The message is: "You can shoot great shots with every kind of lens, you don't have to spend a lot of money. Yes, the Summicron is sharper, a smoother bokeh and less distortion but does it really count? And he likes the Summicron on film Leicas, because it's another story on film."