Voigtlander Nokton 35mm f1.4ii or Ultron 35mm f2

[mheine]

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vor 17 Stunden schrieb Dennis:

I can see. I know the Distagon, as you say, it's probably one of the best 35 IQ out there. And it's wonderful that despite that, many people prefer to use , for example, the Nokton 35/1.4 II. W/ or w/o flaws 🙂

Good to know. Did you never compared it with the Ultron? I heard the Ultron has overall better IQ, but less character, to say it in a way. It's "just" a modern lens

Thank you a lot to share photos, I appreciate it

 

You're welcome! If you need more, I got tons of examples! 🙂

I never considered the Ultron because I think the 35mm f1.4 II is everything I need and stopped down it's super sharp in my opinion. And as I shoot DNG, I always edit my shots, so in post I add some sharpening if needed, sometimes I even unsharp my shots because the rendering is too clinical for my taste. 

Summarized: If you want a small 35mm with the capability of f1.4 and you like the flaws that comes with it using the lens on f1.4; glows, flares, vignetting, special bokeh, a bit soft --> get it! Stopped down, without knowing how the Ultron behaves, I guess they are at least on f2.8 and above pretty much the same. So, I think the Nokton Classic is the better overall package but this is just my personal opinion.

Edited March 11, 2021 by mheine

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[sergiomarried]

1 hour ago, mheine said:

You're welcome! If you need more, I got tons of examples! 🙂

I never considered the Ultron because I think the 35mm f1.4 II is everything I need and stopped down it's super sharp in my opinion. And as I shoot DNG, I always edit my shots, so in post I add some sharpening if needed, sometimes I even unsharp my shots because the rendering is too clinical for my taste. 

Summarized: If you want a small 35mm with the capability of f1.4 and you like the flaws that comes with it using the lens on f1.4; glows, flares, vignetting, special bokeh, a bit soft --> get it! Stopped down, without knowing how the Ultron behaves, I guess they are at least on f2.8 and above pretty much the same. So, I think the Nokton Classic is the better overall package but this is just my personal opinion.

Amen 👍

[lct]

Besides its small size, one of the strengths of the Ultron 35/2 asph is its 0.58m MFD. Makes a significant difference when using it with an EVF. Also it has generally more acutance than the Nokton 35/1.4 v2 SC but the difference is not huge. It may just feel more "clinical" than the Nokton that i prefer for portraiture personally. Associated to a 50mm Leica lens, i would pair the Ultron 35/2 asph with a Summilux 50/1.4 asph or a Summicron 50/2 apo and the Nokton 35/1.4 v2 SC with a Summilux 50/1.4 pre-asph or a Summicron 50/2 pre-apo. Size wise, my own preferences are Ultron + Summarit 50/2.5 and Nokton + ZM Sonnar 50/1.5. Hard to beat combos in their own rights. FWIW.

[mheine]

Ahhh, I have one thing to add: Don't fall into the "sharpness - trap", especially when you're shooting in movement or subjects that are moving. My ZEISS is at f1.4 as sharp as the Voigtlander at around f5.6 but to get 100% accurate I have to focus very precise, so, a lot slower and this kills sometimes the moment. 
For me, the M system is all about documentary photography which means "nothing has to be 100% perfect" but your shot should tell a story or bring up emotions. This is why I love the Voigtlander so much, it is small, light, easy to handle, super cheap in comparison to Leica glass and has an unique rendering, even when your focus is not 100% perfect. Because it's not that clinical, especially wide open, missed focusing is more forgiving and can sometimes even add some emotions into the shot. On other systems like Sony, Nikon, Canon or even Leica SL / CL / Q it's a whole different story. With these systems I am aiming for perfection because my camera is like a computer and I want every shot to be 100% correct focused, so, sharp images on every aperture.
For example, I did shoot a wedding 6 months ago with my M10 + Voigtlander / Q and everyone was super excited about the look of both renderings. The Q shots were just perfect, super sharp and "modern". On the other hand, the M10 shots with the Voigtlander looked more out of a movie and "less digital" (of course, post processing helps a lot), somehow more lively. This is what the M system is all about, at least for me: Emotions and memories, less digital looking!

For example: This may sound crazy but I prefer the Voigtlander all day over the new APO-Summicron 35mm f2 and the images I've seen so far are looking nothing special, a bit boring to be honest.

So, if you are not shooting super slowed down scenes, don't think too much about sharp / modern lenses (on the M system). 

And as always, this is my opinion and some think completely different about this. 🙂

[Ko.Fe.]

I'm not too optimistic about VC 35 APO as "workhorse" on Ms. With hood added it might block 35 framelines.  

[mheine]

vor 23 Minuten schrieb Ko.Fe.:

I'm not too optimistic about VC 35 APO as "workhorse" on Ms. With hood added it might block 35 framelines.  

I don't get the whole APO thing except you're shooting products and you need that overall sharpness but for daily occasions? Just no! Neither the Voigtlander APO nor the Leica APO are interesting for me. Even the 0.3m is more of a gimmick to me, everything that you have to do with Live View is not very handy and that focus degree looks super bad, ugly and not practical. If I want to focus closer than 0.7m I won't use a Leica M camera at all. But as said, I see the M system as cameras "for the moment", thanks to the rangefinder focus system I feel more "in the moment" than on any other system but if I need "perfect" shots with 100% accurate composition I would never consider the Leica M. 
Viewfinder blockage is something that gets way too much attention, in my opinion. With the ZEISS I have a lens that many consider as super bad when looking through the viewfinder but I don't see any problem while using it. The only real issue I have with the ZEISS is that my M10 gets front heavy but that's it and that's only aesthetics.

[lct]

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Reminds me of the way i was using my Leica Ms 30+ years ago . There are still film Ms or digital cameras like the M10-D for photogs like you fortunately. Others prefer LV or need it to do pics you prefer shooting with other cameras. Matter of needs and tastes as usual . BTW all CV lenses are not limited to 0.7m fortunately. Great to have 0.58m on the CV 35/2 or 0.5m on CV 15/4.5, 21/3.5 or 21/4 but 0.3m is only achieved with special lenses and/or adapters normally so the new Leica 35/2 apo sounds interesting from this viewpoint. YMMV.

[Dennis]

10 hours ago, Steven Seven said:

Yes it gets "dreamy" and "glowy" but it's actually decently sharp in the center at f/1.4. I love this effect: not for every shot, of course, but it's glorious. The "glow" largely goes away at f/2 and contrast is fully restored at f/2.8

 

7 hours ago, mheine said:

I never considered the Ultron because I think the 35mm f1.4 II is everything I need and stopped down it's super sharp in my opinion.

 

7 hours ago, mheine said:

Stopped down, without knowing how the Ultron behaves, I guess they are at least on f2.8 and above pretty much the same. So, I think the Nokton Classic is the better overall package but this is just my personal opinion.

I can see; thank you for your feedback. This is the point: I really like my 35/2.8 Biogon rendering, very modern without any notorious flaws, so maybe to add an Ultron II to the family, it's not the best idea. Perhaps they are both "similar" modern and little clinical lenses, and besides one stop difference, and the new focus tab (in v2) are the only things that make the difference.
But with the Nokton II, maybe, I can have "similar" results from 2.8 and stopped down and have unique rendering for f/2 and f/1.4. I guess it really depends on the photographer, not the lenses, but I see many kinds of photography styles of people shooting with this lens. Sometimes I really adore the rendering, very unique. Sometimes I see a glow that is so horrible. But I guess it depends from lens to lens and shooting style and conditions. But most of the time, it looks fascinating.

5 hours ago, lct said:

Besides its small size, one of the strengths of the Ultron 35/2 asph is its 0.58m MFD.

Interesting, I didn't know it. But not so useful for me, I don't use LF often, and I don't have EVF. But yes, it's a plus.

2 hours ago, mheine said:

My ZEISS is at f1.4 as sharp as the Voigtlander at around f5.6 but to get 100% accurate I have to focus very precise, so, a lot slower and this kills sometimes the moment. 
For me, the M system is all about documentary photography which means "nothing has to be 100% perfect" but your shot should tell a story or bring up emotions.

+1 Can't agree more.

I don't care about perfection. For this, I can use Sony with eye AF to ensure everything is 100% sharp and in focus. But it's not the case (and purpose) with a digital M camera, and I love it. Perfectly imperfect. 

2 hours ago, Ko.Fe. said:

I'm not too optimistic about VC 35 APO as "workhorse" on Ms. With hood added it might block 35 framelines.  

It's not a problem at all for me. Small or large lenses, VF blockage, can make the difference, I know, but being an RF and shooting with both eyes open, an easy "compensate" the detail. Well, for me. 

 

 

[lct]

3 minutes ago, Dennis said:

But with the Nokton II, maybe, I can have "similar" results from 2.8 and stopped down and have unique rendering for f/2 and f/1.4. I guess it really depends on the photographer, not the lenses, but I see many kinds of photography styles of people shooting with this lens. Sometimes I really adore the rendering, very unique. Sometimes I see a glow that is so horrible.

Then the Nokton 35/1.4 v2 SC is not for you (glow). I have no experience with the MC version though. Question to ask our colleague adan who's using an MC v2 IINW.

[Ko.Fe.]

1 hour ago, mheine said:

I don't get the whole APO thing except you're shooting products and you need that overall sharpness but for daily occasions? Just no! Neither the Voigtlander APO nor the Leica APO are interesting for me. Even the 0.3m is more of a gimmick to me, everything that you have to do with Live View is not very handy and that focus degree looks super bad, ugly and not practical. If I want to focus closer than 0.7m I won't use a Leica M camera at all. But as said, I see the M system as cameras "for the moment", thanks to the rangefinder focus system I feel more "in the moment" than on any other system but if I need "perfect" shots with 100% accurate composition I would never consider the Leica M. 
Viewfinder blockage is something that gets way too much attention, in my opinion. With the ZEISS I have a lens that many consider as super bad when looking through the viewfinder but I don't see any problem while using it. The only real issue I have with the ZEISS is that my M10 gets front heavy but that's it and that's only aesthetics.

  

1 minute ago, Dennis said:

It's not a problem at all for me. Small or large lenses, VF blockage, can make the difference, I know, but being an RF and shooting with both eyes open, an easy "compensate" the detail. Well, for me. 

I have sold all lenses which where protruding into Ms frame-lines.

Watch the edges is advice which I received from fellow street photographer.   

Moment could be captured in lomography style where don't think is close to don't frame. But the whole reason of M to me is clear view in framelines (a must) and as uncluttered VF as possible. One eye, two eyes, no framelines it just same lomography. I do it with E-PL1 and 15/8 pancake. Point and Shoot.

I have zero problem with getting exposure very accurately framed via accurate M4-2 35mm frame-lines. With 40mm like 35 framelines, I'm still finding it possible. I print full frame, no crop. As long as I could see what I'm actually framing, would it be seconds or split of the second. But I can't frame accurately something I can't see  in the framelines. 

[Dennis]

3 minutes ago, Ko.Fe. said:

I have sold all lenses which where protruding into Ms frame-lines.

Watch the edges is advice which I received from fellow street photographer.

Agree. The edges are essential, like all the rest of the frame. But this is not a limitation, IMHO. I'm picky with my compositions, but VF blockage was never a problem.
My dear Ko.Fe., I'm still new to the world of Leica; I really want (need?) to try new lenses and see what the world of RF can do for me 🙂 I own three lenses only, and they are the only ones I saw in my life. No Leica store/retailer or RF fellow to talk within my area (and possibly in the country)since I had a Leica three years ago ... That's why I write a lot in the forum; sorry about that! I have a massive passion for photography. It's my profession too. And for most of my work, I'll love to entirely switch to Leica M in the future. But I need more gear (a few more lenses, spare batteries, etc.) and, most importantly, to understand M's full potential.
Step by step, I'm not in a rush. But yes, guys, I enjoy shooting with my Leica M10 more than any camera I owned.

So, where we was? Nokton II or APO?
 

 

[Dennis]

21 minutes ago, lct said:

Then the Nokton 35/1.4 v2 SC is not for you (glow). I have no experience with the MC version though. Question to ask our colleague adan who's using an MC v2 IINW.

My choice would be the MC, w/o doubt

[mheine]

vor 35 Minuten schrieb lct:

Reminds me of the way i was using my Leica Ms 30+ years ago . There are still film Ms or digital cameras like the M10-D for photogs like you fortunately. Others prefer LV or need it to do pics you prefer shooting with other cameras. Matter of needs and tastes as usual . BTW all CV lenses are not limited to 0.7m fortunately. Great to have 0.58m on the CV 35/2 or 0.5m on CV 15/4.5, 21/3.5 or 21/4 but 0.3m is only achieved with special lenses and/or adapters normally so the new Leica 35/2 apo sounds interesting from this viewpoint. YMMV.

Naaa, that M10-D is too much for me, I would never buy a M without screen. Even I know how everything works (ISO, Shutter Speed, Aperture) but some light conditions are so difficult to nail, even with a display, haha! So nope, not for me! 🙂

I use the Nokton Version II MC, there are glows until f2 but not all the time. Bright light and very contrasty situation (where whites and blacks are colliding) are pushing those glows. But it's not like every image shot below f2 will have glows. I use the Nokton 80% on f1.4 and don't feel like getting too much of them.

Some provoke that glow / flare look by shooting f1.4 all the time, even on super sunny days where you cameras says "Dude, even with 1/4000 and the lowest ISO value your shot will badly overexpose". This, for me, are the bad examples of what the Voigtlander can do because they just want to have that (mainstream) flare and the rendering looks weird when overexposed. 

[Dennis]

6 minutes ago, mheine said:

This, for me, are the bad examples of what the Voigtlander can do because they just want to have that (mainstream) flare and the rendering looks weird when overexposed. 

As always, depending on who is using the lens. The right exposure it makes totally difference.

But again, considering size, weight and price, I think this lens it's a truly bargain.

[Ko.Fe.]

17 minutes ago, Dennis said:

Agree. The edges are essential, like all the rest of the frame. But this is not a limitation, IMHO. I'm picky with my compositions, but VF blockage was never a problem.
My dear Ko.Fe., I'm still new to the world of Leica; I really want (need?) to try new lenses and see what the world of RF can do for me 🙂 I own three lenses only, and they are the only ones I saw in my life. No Leica store/retailer or RF fellow to talk within my area (and possibly in the country)since I had a Leica three years ago ... That's why I write a lot in the forum; sorry about that! I have a massive passion for photography. It's my profession too. And for most of my work, I'll love to entirely switch to Leica M in the future. But I need more gear (a few more lenses, spare batteries, etc.) and, most importantly, to understand M's full potential.
Step by step, I'm not in a rush. But yes, guys, I enjoy shooting with my Leica M10 more than any camera I owned.

So, where we was? Nokton II or APO?
 

 

Do you realize you are about to switch to the gear which has no local support? M10 is the last camera I would do this as single camera.

I personally know only one of the few professionals who has switched from traditional gear to digital M. None I'm aware, know where I'm. We have no Leica service for entire country. He is in Chicago. And he has more than one digital M. Not because he just likes them, but because he needs backup. Even if Leica have service in NJ. 

[Dennis]

3 minutes ago, Ko.Fe. said:

Do you realize you are about to switch to the gear which has no local support? M10 is the last camera I would do this as single camera.

I personally know only one of the few professionals who has switched from traditional gear to digital M. None I'm aware, know where I'm. We have no Leica service for entire country. He is in Chicago. And he has more than one digital M. Not because he just likes them, but because he needs backup. Even if Leica have service in NJ. 

Yes I know, and it's frustrating. Thats why I'm saying step by step. I would need another camera, probably M10-P ... or M11, we'll see. But at least, two cameras for sure. I'm just afraid about bad luck. You believe or not, in the last ten years, I never had the need of a repair service, or just a CLA. But I was using only DSLR and many lenses.  

Leica and Mexico, doesn't fit very well 😆

Time will see.

 

 

[geoffreyg]

Having spent many years chasing sharpness , with Leica and tech cameras, the VL 35 1.4 is a different animal. With interest in the atmospheric,  just got the lens, SC. It arrived a few days ago, a few thoughts: 

- its a lot of fun. Different in handling and size than the Leica lenses, but quite workable.

- its seems like three lenses in one: highly atmospheric at f f1.4, then glows but is more reasonable from say f 2 - 2.8, and then from f 5.6 on up its a totally predictable sharp lens, and well behaved. 

- not sure which is preferred - each have their merits. Sometimes shoot same image with different apertures to see what is best later. Very much liking the first two "lenses", and quite happy to have the more reasonable "third lens" in the package. 

- with architectural still lives, am enjoying the more glow-type shots. Its subtle tonality (perhaps its the SC) is quite interesting, different and worth engaging. Perhaps its the times, but it allows for more moodiness. 

 

 

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[mheine]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb Steven:

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Nokton 35 F1.4, wide open, M7, Portra 400

This is a great shot and has emotions in it, something you won't get with a super sharp, technical perfect lens. Character over perfection all day, as long it's for personal work.
 

vor einer Stunde schrieb geoffreyg:

Having spent many years chasing sharpness , with Leica and tech cameras, the VL 35 1.4 is a different animal. With interest in the atmospheric,  just got the lens, SC. It arrived a few days ago, a few thoughts: 

- its a lot of fun. Different in handling and size than the Leica lenses, but quite workable.

- its seems like three lenses in one: highly atmospheric at f f1.4, then glows but is more reasonable from say f 2 - 2.8, and then from f 5.6 on up its a totally predictable sharp lens, and well behaved. 

- not sure which is preferred - each have their merits. Sometimes shoot same image with different apertures to see what is best later. Very much liking the first two "lenses", and quite happy to have the more reasonable "third lens" in the package. 

- with architectural still lives, am enjoying the more glow-type shots. Its subtle tonality (perhaps its the SC) is quite interesting, different and worth engaging. Perhaps its the times, but it allows for more moodiness. 

 

 

This sounds great and I am happy that you have the same feeling about the lens as I have!

I think way too much people are chasing that "perfect equipment" and think that their (bad / decent) shots will become art just because of using super expensive camera gear. No offense against most Noctilux users but spending around 9k to shoot almost 90% blurry images because the focus wasn't nailed is just questionable, to me. But I don't get that Leica lens hype at all (had two for a week), I think as long you're not a pixel peeper (for me those who are don't understand what photography is all about) almost everything on the market is more than enough, even these Chinese lenses. 

And everyone who says the Nokton is garbage is just not willing to pay attention of how the lens actually works. You can get great results with the Voigtlander 35mm f1.4 if you "know what you're doing". There are tons of great photographers using that lens, some are even pushed by Leica themself, examples:
https://www.instagram.com/traegi
https://www.instagram.com/josselin
https://www.instagram.com/polina.washington

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[Harpomatic]

1 hour ago, mheine said:

This is a great shot and has emotions in it, something you won't get with a super sharp, technical perfect lens.

Can I ask what the lens rendering has to do with the image value at all here? It’s a great image, it would be a great image with a worse lens or the new APO-Summicron 35mm. It’s a great image and any emotion is given by the content, the photographer’s choice of time and composition and the subject. Not the lens!

By the way, I fully agree with the rest of your post.

[lct]

1 hour ago, Steven said:

As soon as we get deep in a gear conversation, there's always someone coming to say that gear doesnt matter. 

Haha and of course it is never someone who can afford the gear in question . Nothing personal either .