Really, new cheap(er) film M in 2021 ?

[ianman]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

4 hours ago, jukka said:

Composing is really not that extraordinary of a task.

For me it is. Exposure takes a second to set, I can spend a long long time composing.

[Advertisement]

The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[jukka]

9 hours ago, Aryel said:

Why does it bother you so much that some people prefer a simpler viewfinder? You seem rather delicate about this. 

 

6 hours ago, wattsy said:

 And why is it necessary to sarcastically insult people who have a different preference – why not just leave it that you don't understand?

Look, guys, given all the talk here about the importance of the uncluttered viewfinder, I don't think this is an unfair topic to discuss. Expecting something like this, I did apologize in advance, no? All Leicas basically have a very uncluttered viewfinder. Thus, one might think that any info displayed would be placed there to help, not obstruct. 

And no, it is not the same as any meaningless personal preference. A choice between silver and black chrome is pretty meaningless. Here, however, you bring forward an assumption of functionality. A correct meat analogy would be to prefer rare steak because, according to some hidden argument, it gives you health benefits.

 

5 hours ago, ianman said:

Exposure takes a second to set, I can spend a long long time composing.

Yes, but why would displayed shutter speed, for instance, hamper that process? I don't know, maybe I am just not equipped to understand all this. 

[ianman]

3 hours ago, jukka said:

one might think that any info displayed would be placed there to help

We all have our ways of using the tool. Having the shutter speed displayed in the viewfinder may help you, it doesn’t help me. I usually have a good idea of the exposure settings. But as others have written before, there is no “right” or “wrong”, there is nothing to understand, it’s just a question of personal preference. Being an MP user, I’m only moderately anti-clutter

 

[Aryel]

6 hours ago, jukka said:

Here, however, you bring forward an assumption of functionality. A correct meat analogy would be to prefer rare steak because, according to some hidden argument, it gives you health benefits.

I don’t bring forward an assumption of functionality. I have already explained why I like it this way. We are turning round and round here. ´Like’ is the important word here. Nobody is trying to convince anyone else of anything here. Except maybe that steak should be eaten rare of course 😋. 

[Anbaric]

18 hours ago, jukka said:

The last point would be there only to sell the camera to those who have read from the internet that cameras are things that need to be passed on to great-great-grandchildren.   

That's not an entirely frivolous expectation. A 90 year old Leica can still be serviced and brought back to factory specs, but you might not be able to pass on a fully working M6-TTL to a younger sibling, because they ran out of its unique circuit boards about 15 years after they stopped selling the camera. If you're going to spend £4000 on a film body, the least you can expect is a bit of longevity.

[adan]

3 minutes ago, Anbaric said:

A 90 year old Leica can still be serviced and brought back to factory specs, but you might not be able to pass on a fully working M6-TTL to a younger sibling, because they ran out of its unique circuit boards about 15 years after they stopped selling the camera

In either case, you would have a Leica - without a working meter - that still takes fine pictures.

[Anbaric]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

24 minutes ago, adan said:

In either case, you would have a Leica - without a working meter - that still takes fine pictures.

Well, as long as it mostly works. But I wonder how many M7 boards they'll have left in a decade or so?

[jukka]

8 hours ago, ianman said:

 there is nothing to understand

 

5 hours ago, Aryel said:

 We are turning round and round here. 

Fair enough, let's file this under "sh*t people say". That's a useful category for understanding stuff.

4 hours ago, Anbaric said:

 But I wonder how many M7 boards they'll have left in a decade or so?

I'll add this here there too. 

[nicci78]

There is nothing new under the sun. 
For a lifetime Leica camera buy a fully mechanical one : every Ms except M7. 
Electronic boards can be repair as long as inventory last. 
Most repair shops did not have M6 TTL board anymore. Making them potential M4 in the future : no metering and no hot shoe flash.

M6 and MP metering system will be repairable in the future. Because Leica still sell new MP nowadays. 

M7 is effectively a ticking bomb. It may or may not explode in one or two decades. When the last board will not be available anymore. Which is quite in a long time. So don’t worry and enjoy any analog M you have. 


But for potential buyers willing to invest in a lifetime camera : just avoid M7 and in a certain manner M6 TTL too. 
 

 

It is really similar to luxury watches : prestigious ones are fully mechanical without battery. 
 Quartz based with battery did not worth anything. Even if they are much more accurate. 

Edited November 3, 2021 by nicci78

[Viv]

For Leica, cheapitude is relative.

[Viv]

The obvious answer to the availability of a cheap(er) rangefinder camera is to persuade Zeiss to resurrect the Ikon.

Better viewfinder than any Leica M camera, lovely control interface, wonderful film rewind mechanism, no silly bottom plate.

I regret selling mine. What was I thinking?

[wattsy]

2 hours ago, Viv said:

Better viewfinder than any Leica M camera, lovely control interface, wonderful film rewind mechanism, no silly bottom plate.

I regret selling mine. What was I thinking?

I don't know. Why would you sell it if it was so good? 😀

[Viv]

4 minutes ago, wattsy said:

I don't know. Why would you sell it if it was so good? 😀

I sold it to buy a Leica M9 under the naive assumption that the M9 would be a better camera.

It was far worse, in terms of an inferior viewfinder, inconsistent white balance, and frequent freezes.

Not to mention the considerable price difference.

[wattsy]

5 hours ago, jukka said:

Fair enough, let's file this under "sh*t people say". That's a useful category for understanding stuff.

Why not file it under "functional differences that some people prefer"? Honestly, I don't get why you can't accept that some people have no need for (or desire to have) a shutter speed readout in the viewfinder. Although I now rarely use it, I also have an all singing and dancing Nikon DSLR but I don't use the in-viewfinder information with that camera either. The same goes for my Leica M 240. I always use both digital cameras in manual exposure mode and, if necessary, fine-tune the exposure using the rear LCD screen (aka chimping).

[wattsy]

5 minutes ago, Viv said:

I sold it to buy a Leica M9 under the naive assumption that the M9 would be a better camera.

It was far worse, in terms of an inferior viewfinder, inconsistent white balance, and frequent freezes.

Not to mention the considerable price difference.

Fair enough. I guess you don't know how good or bad things are if you don't try them. Overall, I liked my M9.

The VF in the Ikon must be a good one (I've never tried that camera). I've owned or used a few rangefinders over the years (Hasselblad Xpan, Epson RD-1, Mamiya 7) and, to me, all of them have seemed inferior (in VF terms) than a Leica M. There's something reassuringly solid and precise about the M viewfinder.

[Matlock]

9 minutes ago, wattsy said:

Why not file it under "functional differences that some people prefer"? Honestly, I don't get why you can't accept that some people have no need for (or desire to have) a shutter speed readout in the viewfinder. Although I now rarely use it, I also have an all singing and dancing Nikon DSLR but I don't use the in-viewfinder information with that camera either. The same goes for my Leica M 240. I always use both digital cameras in manual exposure mode and, if necessary, fine-tune the exposure using the rear LCD screen (aka chimping).

Well said, we are all different. I have an M5 which I really like using, it has the shutter speed displayed in the finder as part of the meter readout (but off frame) but I seldom take note of it. I am sure that some people find that it is vital and just as many, like me, ignore it.

[jukka]

19 hours ago, Matlock said:

 I am sure that some people find that it is vital and just as many, like me, ignore it.

Indeed, you can ignore it, that's exactly my point. Why then make a big deal about the unclutteredness of the viewfinder when it really is, in the case of any Leica, a non-issue?

I'll say this though; online discourses fascinate me in general, and I understand that I am being particularly provocative here. I'll also admit that my inquiries into this subject matter are made a bit tong in cheek, so apologies once again, and do continue as you please and prefer.

[Anbaric]

On 11/3/2021 at 5:44 AM, jukka said:

 

Fair enough, let's file this under "sh*t people say". That's a useful category for understanding stuff.

I'll add this here there too. 

'Sh*t people say' based on previous experience with Leica's long-term support for its electronics. It's not just the M6-TTL. The problem with the self-destructing M9/M-E sensor is well known. If you bought a new M-E for about £4000 in 2015, and you discovered the sensor corrosion problem 5 years later, you'd be out of luck, because Leica stopped replacing the sensors in 2020, even if you paid them. When DMR users who had spent the same sort of money found their batteries would no longer hold a charge 4 or 5 years after they bought the module, Leica had no replacements to sell them. Buy one of Leica's traditional products, like an M lens or a mechanical film camera or a pair of binoculars, and you might reasonably expect it to be fixable indefinitely. Buy one of their battery-powered products, and expect the typical lifespan of any other piece of consumer electronics, but with Leica's 'heirloom' pricing, and probably with less chance of getting hold of spares a few years down the line than with a mass-produced camera.

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[IkarusJohn]

I suspect that’s why people here keep trading up …

[Rupert Greenwell]

I find it hard to believe that Leica will make a "cheaper M film camera" . My guess would be a partnership with Panasonic and produce an affordable  film camera that is aimed at the younger  generation who have a interest in film but not the means to buy a M new or secondhand. 

     Remember the Leica Minilux, it was my first Leica, I bought it when I was in my twenties as I could not afford a M, I went on to save up for a M6 and then buy a new MP. I have been a Leica owner ever since.