Really, new cheap(er) film M in 2021 ?

[mole73]

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Am 27.10.2021 um 05:22 schrieb adan:

Well, it would be fun to see the statistics from back when Leica was seriously doing "à la carte" versions of the film cameras - then just the M7 and the MP.

Buyers could choose which rewind device they wanted on their custom-built cameras (along with flexible plastic/metal advance lever vs. all-metal MP-style lever, and so on).

Be interesting to see how many chose an MP fitted with the M7 crank. Versus how many chose an M7 with the MP knob substituted.

Plus, of course, when the MP came out, Leica started production of the attachable accessory rewind crank 14438 - for photographers who discovered their mistake too late.

Rather an expensive step to take, unless Leica felt there was a distinct market for them.

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/278005-REG/Leica_14438_MP_Rapid_Film_Rewind.html

And there were dozens of similar 3rd-party accessory cranks being made - and sold - in the M3/M2 era. Working photogs thought the knobs were dopey.

https://www.cameraquest.com/LRWlev.htm

But it was a kludge to correct a kludge. So, as I said, Leica disposed of the knob altogether for 35 years - until the purse-and-scarf folks (always reliable camera fashion-accessory-creators) took over.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB974726818477701712

You're right that there are a variety of factors creating the attractiveness of the M6 design - which was, after all, the Leica M with the longest production life. Although the MP will catch it in years (if not numbers) in 2023.

The old record of the M6 has been broken by the MP long ago: 

M6 built from 1984-1998 = 14 years

M6TTL built from 1998-2002 = 4 years

MP built since 2003 = 18 years

[a.noctilux]

It would be hard to break the M6 number of made units, in my 'Leica Pocket Book 8th. Edition' this is 132,454 as total.

Also as 1999 last year of M6 production, 2,151 made.

As side note, I fear that this Record number would remain as Record for modern Leica M (after M3's 215,944 of course)

[Matlock]

1 hour ago, mole73 said:

The old record of the M6 has been broken by the MP long ago: 

M6 built from 1984-1998 = 14 years

M6TTL built from 1998-2002 = 4 years

MP built since 2003 = 18 years

Adan was referring to "the attractiveness of the M6 design" which includes the M6TTL as well as the original M6. Obviously there are quite a few differences (taller top plate and the changed shutter speed dial which was continued on the M7) but the basic design remains. The M7 retained that basic design in spite of the electronics and aperture preference Auto. 

[a.noctilux]

Confidence 🤷‍♂️

After having a look at the huge numbers of Leica M produced in the past,

 

 

I have some doubt on the rumored 'new' film M.

- the demand on film market would not grow enough to fund this new 'cheaper M'

- film beeing more and more expensive,

- film use needs some knowledge/practice, so newbies would not follow for long

- Leica 'film'  (new or sh ) would still be too expensive for many

- this 'demand' would collapse, soon

 

[Matlock]

20 minutes ago, a.noctilux said:

Confidence 🤷‍♂️

After having a look at the huge numbers of Leica M produced in the past,

 

 

I have some doubt on the rumored 'new' film M.

- the demand on film market would not grow enough to fund this new 'cheaper M'

- film beeing more and more expensive,

- film use needs some knowledge/practice, so newbies would not follow for long

- Leica 'film'  (new or sh ) would still be too expensive for many

- this 'demand' would collapse, soon

 

I tend to agree with this. Cosina decided to cease production of film bodies to concentrate on lenses presumably due to lack of demand. This leaves only Leica producing film cameras of any consequence. 

Also it has to be accepted that we are a bit of a niche market. Most people that I speak to are totally unaware that film is still available, let alone cameras.

[a.noctilux]

So many people compare the film revival as vinyle revival.

I would like to be wrong.

 

Talking about vinyle, the revival would not last, when the thing has already 'approching' the summit.

These couple of years, I follow the vinyl revival with pleasure, having bought some ( I think ) better gear ( even tubes! ), to

 be 'at top' new and very expensive turntable + cartridges to discover old 'cracks/pops' of my young period.

 

Music LPs are 'at top' but with my older ears, I fear that the CD/FLAC/etc. are not less pleasant or good-hearing.

 

[jukka]

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14 hours ago, Aryel said:

I fully agree with this. I like how this break the photography taking into clear steps. When I raise the camera to my eye, I mostly want to focus and compose. I don’t want to see or think about anything else. 

I don´t want to argue either, but this argument is something that I have always failed to understand. I mean, does it really bother people that much to have some info on the viewfinder? You are somehow distracted from your subject matter due to, for instance, shutter speed being displayed in the viewfinder? 

Again, apologies, not trying to argue here but somehow all this makes me want to go on a "delicate genius" rant – and yes, its a bit of a stretch but nonetheless.

 

 

[adan]

8 hours ago, mole73 said:

The old record of the M6 has been broken by the MP long ago: 

M6 built from 1984-1998 - 14 years

Just for the record, I bought a new M6 (not ttl) in 2003. At a store Leica Day - i.e. with Leica sales reps present. Mine was already in store stock - but if it hadn't been, the Leica reps would have arranged an order for one direct from Solms, and given me a "rain-check."

With the film Ms, which have essentially 95%+ interchangeable parts, there is often a multi-year overlap between models. The M4-P and M6 were the same way - both were available options for several years during the transition. Some late M4-Ps even used distinctly M6 parts (e.g. front window glass of the main viewfinder glued in from the front, rather than inserted into the opening from the back.)

The M6 pre-TTL was in the catalog and being sold for 19-20 years.

With apologies to George Santayana: "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to look silly on the Internet."

[grahamc]

7 hours ago, a.noctilux said:

So many people compare the film revival as vinyle revival.

I would like to be wrong.

 

Talking about vinyle, the revival would not last, when the thing has already 'approching' the summit.

These couple of years, I follow the vinyl revival with pleasure, having bought some ( I think ) better gear ( even tubes! ), to

 be 'at top' new and very expensive turntable + cartridges to discover old 'cracks/pops' of my young period.

 

Music LPs are 'at top' but with my older ears, I fear that the CD/FLAC/etc. are not less pleasant or good-hearing.

 

It would be cool if a truly 'film-like' sensor was produced

[a.noctilux]

7 minutes ago, grahamc said:

It would be cool if a truly 'film-like' sensor was produced

Foveon maybe

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

 

For me the Monochrom sensor of Leica is the best b&w film-like 😇 sensor.

Which film, that is the question ...

 

While waiting I just use the right film 😉 for so long.

Edited November 1, 2021 by a.noctilux

[grahamc]

3 minutes ago, a.noctilux said:

Foveon maybe

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

 

For me the Monochrom sensor of Leica is the best b&w film-like 😇 sensor.

Which film, that is the question ...

Interesting diagrams thanks.

I can definitely say I get more film-like images from my M system than what I used before - real joy to use the same lenses across film and digital and achieve some consistency that way 

Every time I visit the forum these days I see the words MONOCHROME flashing in front of me.  It's become extremely tempting, but all in good time.  In your words I am dedicating a while now "to know" my current set

[ianman]

9 hours ago, a.noctilux said:

- film use needs some knowledge/practice, so newbies would not follow for long

Be careful Arnaud, some here think you are a pretentious elitist for suggesting things like that!

 

[wattsy]

5 hours ago, jukka said:

I don´t want to argue either, but this argument is something that I have always failed to understand. I mean, does it really bother people that much to have some info on the viewfinder?

It bothers me. We all do stuff differently but when I take a photograph, I will have already made a decision about exposure before bringing the camera to my eye. When I look through the viewfinder, all I'm interested in is framing and (usually, though not always) focussing.

[Aryel]

13 hours ago, jukka said:

I don´t want to argue either, but this argument is something that I have always failed to understand. I mean, does it really bother people that much to have some info on the viewfinder? You are somehow distracted from your subject matter due to, for instance, shutter speed being displayed in the viewfinder? 

Again, apologies, not trying to argue here but somehow all this makes me want to go on a "delicate genius" rant – and yes, its a bit of a stretch but nonetheless.

No apology needed 😊.

I think you are confounding preferences and arguments. Yes, it does bother me. I like to decide my exposure settings before raising the camera to my eye. I like the uncluttered frames. I like how it separate photo making into clear simple steps. It is genius in simplicity (not me, the camera 🙃). It is not an argument, just preferences. It doesn’t mean you have to like it.

As mentioned earlier in the thread I still use a Minolta cle for 28/40mm occasionally. The viewfinder  is great for 28/40. A cheaper film M in this flavour would be great for me. I’ll still want an m-a with a 0.85 uncluttered finder someday!

Edited November 2, 2021 by Aryel

[jukka]

8 hours ago, wattsy said:

It bothers me. 

 

55 minutes ago, Aryel said:

Yes, it does bother me.

Well, we are talking semantics here, but obviously some information on the viewfinder bothers you both. You can say that it is about subjective preferences. The difference, however, is in functionality, no? I am assuming that an "uncluttered" finder makes it easier for you to compose and thus leads to better photos. Again, personal preferences, but you are here producing an argument regarding functionality. 

And this I don't really understand. My argument is that personal skill and experience matter more than whether shutter speed or secondary frame lines are displayed on the viewfinder. Composing is really not that extraordinary of a task. Some displayed information should not hamper the work of even the most delicate genius.

For this reason all this talk appears (to me, at least) often to be just online nonsense; people read and uncritically repeat it – hence the apology. (We can say that present company excluded.)

If Leica ever releases another film body, I would buy an M7.2. It would sport the larger M10 viewfinder, no DX reader, and both mechanically and electronically controlled shutter speeds. The last point would be there only to sell the camera to those who have read from the internet that cameras are things that need to be passed on to great-great-grandchildren.   

[Aryel]

55 minutes ago, jukka said:

Again, personal preferences, but you are here producing an argument regarding functionality. 

´I prefer my steak rare ´ is this an argument?

Why does it bother you so much that some people prefer a simpler viewfinder? You seem rather delicate about this. 

Happy shooting with whichever camera you enjoy 🙃. 
 

[wattsy]

4 hours ago, jukka said:

And this I don't really understand. My argument is that personal skill and experience matter more than whether shutter speed or secondary frame lines are displayed on the viewfinder. Composing is really not that extraordinary of a task. Some displayed information should not hamper the work of even the most delicate genius.

For this reason all this talk appears (to me, at least) often to be just online nonsense; people read and uncritically repeat it – hence the apology. (We can say that present company excluded.)

Jesus wept. Why does it bother you that others prefer things differently? And why is it necessary to sarcastically insult people who have a different preference – why not just leave it that you don't understand?

Edited November 2, 2021 by wattsy

[a.noctilux]

Nothing is as nice as discovering "better xxxx".

👇

My greatest (good) surprise, some years ago, when I was showed one LTM Leica ( strange I don't remember which one of the 1930's), but it was the aux. VF

unseen (by me , by then) the tiny SBOOI/12015 .

Net result, when I was proud of the M3's viewfinder that I used for some years, I must admit that the SBOOI was far better.

Now I purchased some of them, use happily on as many M as I want.

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Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

for info image from Wiki

[a.noctilux]

Adding ...more SBOOI talk

funny family here

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[wattsy]

32 minutes ago, a.noctilux said:

Nothing is as nice as discovering "better xxxx".

👇

My greatest (good) surprise, some years ago, when I was showed one LTM Leica ( strange I don't remember which one of the 1930's), but it was the aux. VF

unseen (by me , by then) the tiny SBOOI/12015 .

Net result, when I was proud of the M3's viewfinder that I used for some years, I must admit that the SBOOI was far better.

Now I purchased some of them, use happily on as many M as I want.

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

for info image from Wiki

I don't have an external VF at the moment (I used to have one when I had a 24mm lens) but I agree that they are a nice method of framing a photo. I also quite like framing a photo with the '0'-serie replica that I very occasionally use. I've written here a few times how 'zenlike' that can be. The arms-length non-optical framing device on that camera takes uncluttered-ness to a new level and is akin to just using a cropping square held up to the world to frame a photo.