Really, new cheap(er) film M in 2021 ?

[logan2z]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

29 minutes ago, Charles Morgan said:

The local "delicacy" in Devon and Cornwall is the pasty - bits of steak with highly seasoned onion, potato and swede, wrapped in lard pastry then baked.  As a snack on a cold day it is stunning, albeit likely to remove your ribs from sight thereafter. The manner of closure of the pasty - side crimped for Cornish, top crimped for Devon is one for the locals to argue over. 

Thanks for the explanation.  It means something very different here in the US.

[Advertisement]

The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[tom.w.bn]

vor 3 Stunden schrieb logan2z:

Then who is buying up all of the M6s and driving prices way up?  Most of the YouTubers I see talking about film and shooting with Leicas (mostly M6s, it seems) appear to fall into the "twentysomethings" category.  Maybe that's too small a sample size to tell the whole story...

Your first observation is correct. When a film photography youtuber reviews a camera (not only Leica M6), used prices seem to up.

We don't know what the audience of these youtubers exactly looks like and who is triggerd to buy something.

My observation from my local group (very small sample size): the younger people all did not know the typical suspects on youtube, the older people knew them.

[wattsy]

4 hours ago, adan said:

M4-2s are about in the M5 range, with no lens or winder. $750 for a user, up to $1600-ish for a primo condition with box, etc.

That's interesting. The rise in used prices of the classic non-metered cameras seems less marked than that of M6 and M7 prices. (The metered M5 doesn't seem to have been caught up in the M film camera hyperinflation either but I guess that body has never been a popular choice.) Whatever demographic happens to be driving up these prices it appears to be one that prefers a meter in the camera which, if true, should give Leica pause for thought about offering any kind of stripped down M-A. I don't think it is coincidence that the rumours are about reissuing something like the M6 rather than like the M2.

[pippy]

2 hours ago, a.noctilux said:

😊must be delicious 

They are! I'm a 'Devon Closure' guy...

P.

[pippy]

3 hours ago, a.noctilux said:

...The dreamed camera was so expensive (even second hand) that I must wait (long long wait not been able to use the M4 ) six months before I can buy (second hand) a first lens...

I can empathise 100%.

When I bought my 'ancient' (actually 'only' 20 years old - same age as me at the time) M2 it took me a few weeks of saving all my 'Student Holiday Job' money even to buy a well-used 50mm f2.8 Elmar but by the end of the Christmas holidays that same year I had also managed to save up enough to acquire a pre-M2, pre-goggled 35mm f3.5 Summaron. They were the least expensive versions of an M body and the lens f/lengths I wanted and was thrilled to have been able to get body and both lenses over the course of 6 months.

I still have (and use) all three.

Heigh-Ho. Going back to the OP;

I'm not sure how Leica might be able to manage it but an 'Entry Level' M film body would, I'm fairly sure, be an absolute triumph sales-wise.

Clearly (as we have all seen) the 'market' for hoovering-up late-model film cameras has never been stronger. The prices quoted here for even the least-popular Ms (4-2; 4-P) seem to be (in UK terms) very much on the low side and the prices for M6 and M7 bodies nowadays are, well, surprising, shall we say?

So; as to who would be buying the new 'entry-level' etc? Parents whose children have shown an interest in learning photography 'the Proper Way' and can afford to start them out with quality kit would be one. Students / post-grad's who wish to buy new, quality, rangefinder kit would be another. Amateur photographers who have decided that they could now afford a Leica M would be another....the list of potential new Leica users is huge. If, that is, they can afford to buy the camera in the first place.

Philip.

Edited January 4, 2021 by pippy

[adan]

One possibility that makes sense to me (as a source of the M6 rumor -but NOT cheaper) is a "nostalgia" M6 cosmetic replica based on standard MP parts. Cashing in on the "hipster" fascination with the M6. Or the collector fascination for "Ooooo - another new model to add to the display case."

Sort of like the limited "40 years of Leica M" M6J from 1994; a standard M6 tarted up to look like an M3 - and which also introduced the 0.85x viewfinder (which became a regular option a few years later) and the "new" 50mm Elmar f/2.8, which also became a standard production lens for about 10 years.

https://www.cameraquest.com/leicam6j.htm

[BradS]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

47 minutes ago, adan said:

One possibility that makes sense to me (as a source of the M6 rumor -but NOT cheaper) is a "nostalgia" M6 cosmetic replica based on standard MP parts. Cashing in on the "hipster" fascination with the M6. Or the collector fascination for "Ooooo - another new model to add to the display case."

 

...or sensible people who'd like an MP without the nostalgic M2 style film advance and rewind. 

 

you know, because we'd actually like to use the damned thing, not just look at it.

[pippy]

2 hours ago, wattsy said:

...it appears to be one that prefers a meter in the camera which, if true, should give Leica pause for thought about offering any kind of stripped down M-A. I don't think it is coincidence that the rumours are about reissuing something like the M6 rather than like the M2.

I agree wholeheartedly.

I know quite a few mid-to-late-teens (15 - 17 years old) who are very keen on learning how to 'do' photography properly and have enrolled on Saturday courses which teach them from the absolute basics (and they really do love the whole immersive process from Photograms through Cyanotypes, Printing-out-papers and so on) but I've asked them and each one of them wants - and likes - TTL metering in their cameras so they can get something at least somewhere in the ballpark as far as exposure is concerned.

Fully manual, mechanical film cameras? Yes. Metering? Yes. All of them. Interestingly not one person wants a semi-automatic option. Fully Manual exclusively.

As such I think that TTL metering should be an essential feature if the camera is to be aimed at any but the more 'traditional-minded' clientele - and I very much doubt that the more 'traditional-minded' clientele would be numerous enough to make a success of the rumoured offering.

Philip.

[Ouroboros]

34 minutes ago, BradS said:

 

you know, because we'd actually like to use the damned thing, not just look at it.

I suspect the vast majority of new cameras are bought by photographers or beginners with the intention of using them. 

If this forum is an indicator, camera fondlers and fiddlers are fixated by old stuff so this new MC(heapo) will be safe from them for a while.

Edited January 4, 2021 by Ouroboros

[wattsy]

1 hour ago, adan said:

One possibility that makes sense to me (as a source of the M6 rumor -but NOT cheaper) is a "nostalgia" M6 cosmetic replica based on standard MP parts.

Yes, I think that is a distinct possibility and said so when the M6 reissue rumour surfaced. To adapt your analogy, a kind of standard MP tarted up to look like an M6.😀 I have though assumed it would be in MP price territory so I don't know how the "cheaper M" rumour fits in.

[BradS]

7 minutes ago, wattsy said:

......I have though assumed it would be in MP price territory so I don't know how the "cheaper M" rumour fits in.

"Made in Portugal"

where "less expensive" equates to a 10% discount compared to the current list price for an MP.

EDIT: If this turns out to be the case, I'd be very seriously interested...but only if it is an MP in M6 clothing.

Edited January 4, 2021 by BradS

[BradS]

16 minutes ago, Ouroboros said:

.... this new MC(heapo) .....

 

I think, slightly less expensive is probably more accurate.

[Ouroboros]

9 minutes ago, wattsy said:

Yes, I think that is a distinct possibility and said so when the M6 reissue rumour surfaced. To adapt your analogy, a kind of standard MP tarted up to look like an M6.😀 I have though assumed it would be in MP price territory so I don't know how the "cheaper M" rumour fits in.

Swap the brass for zinc.  That leaves plenty of scope for future 'special editions'  complete with  zinc pox to please the fiddlers and make up some of the shortfall.  

I'm beginning to see the logic behind the M6......

[wattsy]

9 minutes ago, Ouroboros said:

Swap the brass for zinc.  That leaves plenty of scope for future 'special editions'  complete with  zinc pox to please the fiddlers and make up some of the shortfall.  

😀 I think I made a similar quip in the earlier rumour thread. To be properly authentic, this reissue should also be fitted with the original apparently flare-prone style VF and come packaged in a stylish plastic presentation box.

[wattsy]

25 minutes ago, BradS said:

"Made in Portugal"

where "less expensive" equates to a 10% discount compared to the current list price for an MP.

Being pedantic, I think that anti-tariff wheeze only works with the lenses (I don't think the people involved in setting the new tariffs are aware that film cameras even exist).

[adan]

Regardless of tariffs, complete Portugese assembly might result in slightly lower costs. I just have no idea of Leica's now-private internal cost structure - or just what the work force is already trained for (seems they are doing a lot of modular preassemblies for cameras already, going by the "boxed kits" that arrive in Wetzlar for final assembly, in the videos made there.)

It is worth noting that ELCAN was already assembling a few M3s and M2s by as early as 1955-58 (per Laney production summaries), and some M4s in 1967 - long before they took over the whole M operation for a while in 1977.

[BradS]

11 hours ago, logan2z said:

Thanks for the explanation.  It means something very different here in the US.

I think it is pronounced differently....

one is pronounced, pass tea

the other (two?) is...well you know that already. 
 

I think we call the Cornish food item shepard’s pie...except in Michigan, where they say pasty like the brits  

 

 

Edited January 5, 2021 by BradS

[plasticman]

8 hours ago, BradS said:

 

...or sensible people who'd like an MP without the nostalgic M2 style film advance and rewind. 

 

you know, because we'd actually like to use the damned thing, not just look at it.

Tangentially off-topic, but I hate this sort of post because it translates a personal preference into some sort of universal truth. I always feel dubious about people who do this, as they are so self-assured about the rightness of their own opinions that I know for sure I'd never get on with them in real life.

In any case, I'll just say I prefer the old-style M2 film-advance and rewind simply because - in my own experience, having owned and owning Ms with both types - I find the new style more fiddly and less 'sturdy' in operation. It's just a personal preference you understand - the way I prefer to use the camera. Apparently it differs from the way you prefer to use it - but I don't feel the need to imply an insult in your preference.

To be on-topic again - I guess these personal preferences are part of what will make this 'cheaper' camera a very difficult task, if Leica intend to pursue it: so many different preferences and priorities to take into account.

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[LocalHero1953]

2 hours ago, BradS said:

I think it is pronounced differently....

one is pronounced, pass tea

the other (two?) is...well you know that already. 
 

I think we call the Cornish food item shepard’s pie...except in Michigan, where they say pasty like the brits  

 

 

Shepherd's Pie is totally different, this side of the water at least: minced beef/lamb & onions (and any other vegetable leftovers) in a deep dish covered with mashed potato, browned before serving.

As a student I was taught to make Cornish pasties by my aunt from Plymouth. As she lived just the eastern side of the Tamar, I have always made them crimped on top.  

Edited January 5, 2021 by LocalHero1953

[pippy]

1 hour ago, LocalHero1953 said:

Shepherd's Pie is totally different......minced beef/lamb & onions...

Not quite, Paul. A Shepherd's Pie is always made with lamb. If the same pie is made with beef instead it would be a Cottage Pie.

Philip.