Future implications for M10/M10-R of the SL2/SL2-S paradigm?

[Guest Nowhereman]

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21 minutes ago, Kwesi said:

In what way(s) does the M10-R lack immediacy?

In the sense of not being to shoot handheld at less than 1/250 or 1/500 shutter speed — of course "immediacy" is not the best choice of word for this issue, but I was using "shorthand" for what is meaningful for me. I could have said, "The M10-R is a great camera for someone who needs the high resolution and is not interested in wanting to shoot at lower shutter speeds than with the M10."

What surprises me, though, is that some people do not recognize that higher resolution cameras need higher shutter speed than 1/f, or even 1/2f, to avoid camera shake, particularly when there are lower pixel sizes, as @jaapv points out. As this has been written about extensively throughout the web, I won't elaborate; but a web search for something like "high resolution cameras and shutter speed" or even "1/f, 1/2f" will yield a lot of articles.
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Edited December 19, 2020 by Nowhereman

[Kwesi]

Thanks for the explanation. I was baffled for a moment.

[LBJ2]

23 minutes ago, Nowhereman said:

In the sense of not being to shoot handheld at less than 1/250 or 1/500 shutter speed — of course "immediacy" is not the best choice of word for this issue, but I was using "shorthand" for what is meaningful for me. I could have said, "The M10-R is a great camera for someone who needs the high resolution and is not interested in wanting to shoot at lower shutter speeds than with the M10."

What surprises me, though, is that some people do not recognize that higher resolution cameras need higher shutter speed than 1/f, particularly when there are lower pixel sizes, as @jaapv points out. As this has been written about extensively throughout the web, I won't elaborate; but a web search for something like "high resolution cameras and shutter speed" or even "1/f, 1/2f" will yield a lot of articles.
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In my experience with other high MP FF cameras if I can't get a sharp photo hand held at 1/250 or 1/500 shutter speeds w/out IBIS with say a 35 or 50mm lens, something else is going on. However, I do not yet own the M10-R and can't test this for myself with that particular camera, but if there was a mass problem with the scenario we both listed, I would think we would hear a lot of complaining as both the Very expensive M10-M and M10-R have been out in the wild for some time now. 

Edited December 19, 2020 by LBJ2

[Guest Nowhereman]

12 minutes ago, LBJ2 said:

In my experience with other high MP FF cameras if I can't get a sharp photo hand held at 1/250 or 1/500 shutter speeds w/out IBIS with say a 35 or 50mm lens, something else is going on...

I certainly put a lot of credence on what @Steven reports in this respect, particularly when he elaborates that his view of "immediacy" of the M10 vs the M10-R being "In the sense that it’s [the M10-R] better at landscape photography than run and gun street shooting." But please note that Steven says that he gets camera shake with the M10-R some 80% of the time when shooting at speeds at shutter speeds below 1/250 sec. 
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[Boojay]

1 hour ago, Steven said:

Sorry mate ... it’s a great camera and I hope you enjoy it. 
I’m downgrading this afternoon, and the R journey cost me 2.2k in the process ! 
but I’m happy like this. I feel confident in my decision. 

Well I really hope you enjoy using your P again Steven, seems like you will have suffered some pain along the way but hopefully worth it in the end.  I have no doubt you are a wonderful photographer having looked at your instagram feed, congratulations!!!  

However, I was waiting to take delivery of my R when you first voiced your problems with blurry images at 1/500 and less, and you had me worried.  Not my first M having had M9P M240 and M10 previously, but I do overdose on coffee daily and have not the steadiest of hands.  But, in my favour, though not a landscape artist I'm also not a "run and gun" style street shooter.  So, when my R arrived, I decided to set up auto iso to give a minimum 1/125 for 50mm and less and so far no unintentional blur thankfully and very happy (more than) with the dng's from my new body, and no wish to give up the advantages I find the extra megapixels bring for me personally.  

My post is just to reassure any others waiting on their R or new to Leica rangefinder not to get too worried (David_miller70), you'll be fine!  

 

 

 

 

Edited December 19, 2020 by Boojay
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[Rob L]

It will be very interesting to watch this thread and hear from others that have upgraded to the 40 MP M10. They have been around a while and I don't recall seeing a lot of complaints from actual owners about lack of sharpness due to camera shake, so far. Lots of conjecture from non owners though.

I had two M10s since early 2017 and they were perfect. I adjusted the rangefinders myself as both came from the factory off in the vertical, and I installed DAG black dots on both. Recently, I very impulsively upgraded to one M10R and one M10M. The cost was not terrible as I bought in at the introductory price on the original M10s ($5695?) and got a great deal on the trades. I have deliberately kept the new cameras set exactly like the old ones as to Auto ISO, ( and everything else ) at the factory setting of 1/f. I have changed nothing about my technique either. My pictures are fine. I would not call what I do "run and gun"  but I do shoot some street and my dogs quite a bit. I'm pretty good at focusing on the catch-light reflecting off of eyes and getting proper focus even wide open.

While I do experience some buyers remorse over abandoning two perfectly good M10s, and I see very little if any advantage to the new cameras output, other than cropability, I don't feel the need for IBIS at 40 MP with the lenses that I use, mostly 50mm and under and enjoy the simplicity of the current M10. I have had several Sonys and now and SL2 and IBIS is great, even mandatory when manual focusing through a magnified electronic viewfinder, but I find both 40MP Ms to be excellent as they are.

 

[jdlaing]

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The search for the holy grail continues..............

[pgk]

4 minutes ago, jdlaing said:

The search for the holy grail continues..............

As does the repetition of folklore.

[LBJ2]

49 minutes ago, Nowhereman said:

I certainly put a lot of credence on what @Steven reports in this respect, particularly when he elaborates that his view of "immediacy" of the M10 vs the M10-R being "In the sense that it’s [the M10-R] better at landscape photography than run and gun street shooting." But please note that Steven says that he gets camera shake with the M10-R some 80% of the time when shooting at speeds at shutter speeds below 1/250 sec. 
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We do not disagree on Steven's report or experience. Likewise not all cameras are a good fit for everybody, their particular shooting style, or scenario. I like others use different cameras based upon what I need or want to do. If I experienced what Steven describes, I would not have kept that camera either. 

Edited December 19, 2020 by LBJ2

[jplomley]

Never heard such nonsense. Been shooting the M10-R since it’s introduction, at several protests with rapid focussing required. Even down to 1/30th sec with my 50 Lux wide open I was able to achieve sharp images. Very rarely do I get a blurred image. I use the grip and have a diopter corrector. Also a left eyed shooter. Perhaps this all contributes to being able to shoot at slower speeds?

[pgk]

Shooting handheld is about controlling motion not MPixels. If you learn how to minimise angular deviation, and sideways/up or down motion, and only to allow motion along the axis of the lens the the result will be sharp mages with all the detail you can want. I've handheld shots at low shutter speed (exceptionally 4s - which made a magazine cover) and the resulting sharpness depends on the care with which this is carried out, not a specific cut off shutter speed. The way you hold and grip the camera is important, as is breathing and the way the shutter is released. [Although we don't discuss guns on the forum, this is very similar to how you hold a rifle in order to minimise motion in all planes and angles except the barrel axis. Accurate shooting requires an understanding and implementation of this]. Hand pressure on the camera requires a hand which grips with applied pressure only in the direction of the lens axis. The support hand should merely do that; support, not grip. This all takes practice and is one reason why the M camera is ergonomically good because these steps are easy to apply due to its form factor.

[Herr Barnack]

On 12/17/2020 at 1:37 PM, Jeff S said:

More specifically, Puts wrote that the L mount was a mistake altogether for Leica. And that all digital is going in the wrong direction, while he retreats to film. His tone is increasingly bitter.

Jeff

Puts wrote back in October, 2019 that he was done with Leica.  Yet he continues to write about Leica.

I don't agree with him that the L system was a mistake.  The only mistake I can see Leica making would be to either discontinue or mess up the M camera. 

The fact that the M10 returned more closely to the film M camera ethos rather than going further astray than the M240 did is a good indication that they saw the light.

[Herr Barnack]

@Steven - As long as you are pleased with your re-acquired M10P, that's all that matters. 

Pay no mind to other people who try to tell you what you "should" do regarding camera choice.

[pgk]

5 minutes ago, Herr Barnack said:

Pay no mind to other people who try to tell you what you "should" do regarding camera choice.

I have no problem with anyone wanting to use any camera that they choose. I do however dislike the reasoning which then ensues especially when it is inaccurate. Hand holding cameras is not about MPiexls, its about holding cameras steady. This takes technique and practice and yes, as speeds slow down the hit rate reduces. But its not impossible to hold a camera steady enough to get great, sharp, and detailed images at shutter speeds considerably less than the reciprocal of the focal length even at high Pixels. .

[Guest Nowhereman]

1 hour ago, Steven said:

Funny how when COVID happens, everyone becomes a health expert, at the time of the elections, everyone is a politics analyst, and now that I have issues with blurry images, the world is full of camera expects and engineers. What's so difficult to accept with the fact that the M10R didn't work for me and that it doesn't mean that I don't know how to take a photo? Seems to me like M10R owners trying to defend their purchase... 

...We each have a system that corresponds us. For most us, its not perfect, one day it may be. Some will need and love the R. For some, it's not the case, but let's respect each others opinion, take pictures, and share our experiences with each other...

Good post Steven, and reads more "grown up" than "the average age of this forum". Incidentally, looking at your instagram feed, I love the color sense of your photography — photography that shows you, clearly, "know how to take a photo."

I wrote earlier, "What surprises me, though, is that some people do not recognize that higher resolution cameras need higher shutter speed than 1/f, or even 1/2f, to avoid camera shake, particularly when there are lower pixel sizes." And I should have added also the issues on focussing as well. I didn't think the physics of this required explanation when it's been so extensively discussed on the web — and these explanations started when digital cameras first got to 24 MP. This is also the reason IBIS was introduced.

I was just going to write an explanation about the physics of reduced pixel pitch and its effect on these issues, but it's too boring to deal with the "know nothing approach", so I'll leave it for people to look up for themselves, or for someone else to provide the explanation.
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Edited December 19, 2020 by Nowhereman

[Jeff S]

4 minutes ago, Steven said:

Right on point, Nowhereman.

And about my issue with people telling me that I spread incorrect information, everything I said is correct: 

1. I don't like the M10R, and I didn't find it better than the P. That is correct. Only me can decide if that correct, I guess!

2. 80% of my M10R shot showed motion blur. That is correct. 80% of my M10P shots were sharp. That is correct. 

3. Higher MP require more technique, both in terms of focusing and steadiness. It's been discussed extensively over the web. Still not sure why some people debate this.

And thanks a lot of the kind words on my pictures, I appreciate the encouragement. I'm still on a learning curve with my photography. My background is supposedly more in film and moving images. 

Cheers

#3 lacks mention of pixel size, degree of magnification/print size. And someone who already has great handholding technique won’t necessarily need any better technique.

Jeff

[LBJ2]

1 hour ago, Steven said:

Funny how when COVID happens, everyone becomes a health expert, at the time of the elections, everyone is a politics analyst, and now that I have issues with blurry images, the world is full of camera expects and engineers. What's so difficult to accept with the fact that the M10R didn't work for me and that it doesn't mean that I don't know how to take a photo? Seems to me like M10R owners trying to defend their purchase.

Anyway. 

One last confirmation, in case that was not enough, that focusing 40MP on an M body is not easy. Two months later, I just traded back my M10R against my old M10P. Lucky for me it wasn't sold. All my settings are still in there. I got out of the shop and snapped a couple photos, barely looking through the RF, and BOOM!!! all tack sharp, all beautiful. I feel liberated. I lost 2,2K in the process, but I feel like ive learned so much about photography and about myself. 

On my shelf tonight, there is a Q2 which I love, an SL2-S which I love, an A7SIII for which I have mixed feeling, and an M, on which I almost gave up. 

Because of the M10R, I almost gave up on the already very constraining M system. I am young, compared to average age on the forum. I grew up in the age of AF and eye detect. The M philosophy was not in my education, but I decided to give it a try a year ago, because I wanted to bring back some lost tradition to my generation. Because it felt good to leave the computer world and understand how a picture is really taken. It was a learning curve, but I loved using my M6 and M10P. In October, out of curiosity, I got dragged into the MP race and upgraded for no other reason than being curious to the R. It has been, FOR ME, a total nightmare. One that almost got me to give up on the M for ever. This thread gave me a little courage, reminded me why I got into the M in the first place. The R shut off my love for the M, but the P just lit the spark again. I am so happy, I will sleep with it in my bed tonight. 

We each have a system that corresponds us. For most us, its not perfect, one day it may be. Some will need and love the R. For some, it's not the case, but let's respect each others opinion, take pictures, and share our experiences with each other. 

Cheers

"All's Well That Ends Well" !

You however do bring a lot of energy to this forum through several threads now ( thank you), and I had the opportunity to see your photography too!  

Like you, I also learned photography with digital, high MP cameras with supersonic AF and found the Leica M10 and beautiful tiny Leica M glass something unusually pleasing and had to add it to my bag.Two years now and the thrill of the budget busting Leica M10 + glass still excites every time I pick it up. OTOH, self reflection has revealed I've spent a hell of a lot more budget on my Sony kit over the last seven/eight years to include all those Sony FF mirrorless camera upgrades.

During my time learning photography basics and attending photography forums since, many forum photographers tend to "let it all hang out" on line, to include heaps of emotions, drama and opinions stated as fact...kind of like real life, I suppose 😉 

Spice of life, digital or otherwise. Keep shooting, keep sharing even more so in these Pandemic -lockdown times.

Otherwise all we have to tune in to is real-life gov't Politics ☠️💩

 

 

Edited December 19, 2020 by LBJ2

[pgk]

14 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

.....someone who already has great handholding technique won’t necessarily need any better technique.

And technique doesn't just happen. It takes practice, lots of it. Just like playing a musical instrument, if you don't practice you don't get any better. And cameras too, take time to learn. 

[Guest Nowhereman]

32 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

... someone who already has great handholding technique won’t necessarily need any better technique...

Great handholding technique will sometimes give good results with high MP cameras, but it's highly contingent — and usually a risk if one wants to take a shot that cannot be repeated. Even the M10 generally requires faster than the 1/f suggested minimum for film. I think the third image of my original post above is a good example. It was shot with a 50mm lens at 1/60 sec — not what I would have planned in the spur of the moment. 

I mean the shot of the tattooed man. While it may look posed, it was taken in conversation. The subject was a Thai yakuza who was  in a restaurant specializing in a Thai/Chinese delicacy (hoy-joh, a type of crab-cake), waiting for a take-away meal for his boss. I would not have spoken to him, nor he to me; but I was with a Thai woman friend, who excels at being able to engage anyone in conversation: she asked him about his tattoos. I was speaking to him when I pressed the shutter and the settings were what I had used on my previous shot, in a less demanding context. The fact that it has no camera shake at 1/60 sec is against the probability — I was conscious of having to keep the camera steady; but if I were setting up the shot, I would have use a higher ISO, say, 3200, and a correspondingly higher shutter speed (1/500 sec).
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Edited December 19, 2020 by Nowhereman

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[adan]

A higher-resolution image will reveal things that a lower-resolution image cannot. Otherwise what is the point? If one can't reveal more sand grains or leaf veins or distant faces with 47 Mp than with 24 Mp - why do people bother?

Among the things it can reveal is more subject or camera movement (for that matter, any photographic artifact: aberrations, lens blur, etc. etc.)

Case in point, that demonstrates the principle.

Low resolution - what blur can you see, and what can't you see?

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Now, higher resolution - what blur is revealed by the higher resolution?