MP vs. M10 Shutter Dial

[gabrielaszalos]

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I've been shooting my MP for over a year now and I can frankly admit the I have found my dream camera. Nevertheless, owning the Summilux 35mm ASPH FLE and 50mm ASPH I was always very tempted to have a digital camera too. I don't necessarily need it, but I wanted it. And I wanted to see what those lenses are capable of for my pixel peeping pleasure and also for various mediums using digital photos. I have no idea what I'm going to do with two cameras and how I'm going to chose one over the other, but GAS (was it?) had to be settled. Rant and confession over.

I'm a bit troubled by the fact that these two cameras, my MP and M10-D have the shutter dials rotating in opposite directions. This is such a mind f*ck. Do others here use an M10 in conjunction with an MP or M-A? If yes, how do you deal with this? I'm pretty sure that learning the rotation of the dial becomes automatic and unconscious at some point, so one is bound to rotate it in the wrong direction. Or, perhaps, my brain can learn that the bigger dial means a different rotation... I wonder...

Looking forward to hearing other experiences.

[a.noctilux]

Hello,

You are overthinking 😉.

You would see that this dialling/rotating is small "problem" comparing to other "real problems" you may have after using the M10 a while !

Just try 😇.

When used on "A" setting, the M10 will show the chosen speed in viewfinder.

When in manual, you will see the "set shutter speed" before looking into the M10 VF.

Edited December 2, 2020 by a.noctilux

[gabrielaszalos]

6 minutes ago, a.noctilux said:

You would see that this dialling/rotating is small "problem" comparing to other "real problems" you may have after using the M10 a while !

Hmm... I wonder what you mean by "real problems"

[Matlock]

5 minutes ago, gabrielaszalos said:

Hmm... I wonder what you mean by "real problems"

I think the reference is to problems that only occur in people's minds. I have MP3, M7, M4, M10 and have never even thought about it.

[wattsy]

I use the M-A and M240 frequently, and always in manual mode. Like Peter, I don't think I ever think about the direction of the shutter dial on either camera. This might be because I rarely fiddle with the shutter dial setting when I have the camera up to my eye. With the M-A in particular I tend to use the same film and pretty much know my exposure settings like the back of my hand. I will set the speed prior to looking through the viewfinder so the rotational direction doesn't really matter. It is a similar process with my M240, which I typically use for photographing butterflies and usually using one of a small number of known exposure settings.

Edited December 2, 2020 by wattsy

[adan]

(For the short version - see last paragraph.)

The historical deal here is that when Leica first designed the "M" shutter and control dial (1954), direction of rotation was irrelevant. No built-in metering.

Once the metered M6 (1986) appeared, using the same dial, it was noticed that the dial did not correspond to the new metering arrows - the meter indicator arrow pointing left <<< meant the dial (or at least the front of the dial) had to be turned right >>> to reach correct exposure.

Although it was correct regarding turning the aperture ring. - which was generally how Leica expected people to reach correct exposure anyway. One set the shutter speed according to subject motion and/or focal length in use - and then adjusted the aperture to get the correct exposure.

So part of the design brief for the M6 TTL and M7 (1998/2002) was 1) making the shutter dial turn the other way, 2) making the dial larger, for easier turning (more leverage), and, as a result of (1), 3) adding a few mm in height to the cameras to allow for an idler gear between the dial and shutter shaft, to reverse the direction of rotation.

The digital Ms simply copied the "new regime" - the M6 TTL and M7.

If you want to see a really oddball Leica M shutter dial - check out the M5's dial. Which is centered around the shutter button, thin and wide, and overhangs the front of the camera for easier "fingertip scrolling." (Ideas all later borrowed by the Nikon FG and Canon AE-1).

But the M5 also has a more complex "match-needle" viewfinder metering indicator - stopping down the lens darkens the image and thus moves the meter needle, while the shutter dial is mechanically connected to a moving index mark, and one simply adjusts both until they coincide .........Ø.... .

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Even odder, the original film CL - with shutter dial set vertically on the front face of the body.

Anyway, apropos your question, in the M6 era, the "mental trick" was to turn the BACK of the shutter dial (with your film-advance thumb) in the direction indicated by the metering indicator arrow(s). Should work with the MP and M-A.

[Michael Geschlecht]

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Hello Everybody,

1 aspect of the M5 not mentioned is that when a person looks into the range/viewfinder window they see a MECHANICAL number designating the shutter speed in use. That is: The number "250" if 1/250 second is currently set: So that if the number is changed, for example to 1/125, then the number in the range/viewfinder changes to"125".

Also: You change the shutter speed with the really nice to use shutter speed dial that overhangs the front of the M5 body.

Just 2 of a number of unique advantages of using an M5 that are not found in other film "M" cameras.

Best Regards,

Michael

[andrew01]

I have the M6 classic with the traditional shutter speed dial.  I generally don’t adjust the shutter speed dial while looking through the viewfinder.  I find it too small to turn effectively with one finger.  I tend to use the camera in  ‘shutter priority’ mode by selecting a speed that I know will be about right for the lighting conditions and then fine tuning the exposure by adjusting the aperture while looking through the viewfinder.  

[250swb]

Never thought about the 'problem' unless I forgot which camera I was using. The touch of the finger on the larger/smaller dial is a clue, but just don't over think it and in a short time you'll get it, and like changing ears on a bicycle your muscle memory will tell you which way to go.

[Denys]

10 hours ago, 250swb said:

Never thought about the 'problem' unless I forgot which camera I was using. The touch of the finger on the larger/smaller dial is a clue, but just don't over think it and in a short time you'll get it, and like changing ears on a bicycle your muscle memory will tell you which way to go.

I hear what you’re saying (but I’ve got my pavement ears on). 😉🚴‍♂️

[gabrielaszalos]

10 hours ago, 250swb said:

Never thought about the 'problem' unless I forgot which camera I was using. The touch of the finger on the larger/smaller dial is a clue, but just don't over think it and in a short time you'll get it, and like changing ears on a bicycle your muscle memory will tell you which way to go.

Or like driving in Germany vs. driving in the UK

Thank you all for the nice answers and history lessons. I wish you all a good week.

[z901a09]

Am 2.12.2020 um 16:02 schrieb gabrielaszalos:

Hmm... I wonder what you mean by "real problems"

Yes, please describe what you mean with "real problems" on the M10. I sold my 1999 M6 before the shutdown and I am about of buying an M10 or P. It confuses me a little. Please explain!

Regards from Graz, Austria 

[Anbaric]

On 12/2/2020 at 3:46 PM, adan said:

Anyway, apropos your question, in the M6 era, the "mental trick" was to turn the BACK of the shutter dial (with your film-advance thumb) in the direction indicated by the metering indicator arrow(s). Should work with the MP and M-A.

This has always seemed the natural way to think of the meter arrows on my M6. After all, I turn the dial with both my finger and thumb. I wonder if the reversal on the M6 TTL was influenced by the larger dial, in the sense that it invites you to think of it as a 'finger wheel' rotated by just the forefinger from the front, rather than a 'thumbwheel'?

[gabrielaszalos]

Just now, Anbaric said:

This has always seemed the natural way to think of the meter arrows on my M6. After all, I turn the dial with both my finger and thumb. I wonder if the reversal on the M6 TTL was influenced by the larger dial, in the sense that it invites you to think of it as a 'finger wheel' rotated by just the forefinger from the front, rather than a 'thumbwheel'?

Not sure about that. For me it’s impossible and uncomfortable to efficiently turn the dial with my thumb. My forefinger on the other hand is easy. 

[a.noctilux]

2 hours ago, z901a09 said:

Yes, please describe what you mean with "real problems" on the M10. I sold my 1999 M6 before the shutdown and I am about of buying an M10 or P. It confuses me a little. Please explain!

Regards from Graz, Austria 

What I mean is from M10 user since early 2017, real problems occured when in use, depending on user.

With time and thousands of pics, no "big problems" with M10 as such, but cumulating smaller ones.

Battery short life was one of them but carrying one or two more (or take less pics ! ) was not hard to overcome.

Hot and hotter, when using the Visoflex 020 with sometimes "not recognition of the device", some trouble with SD cards sometimes.

 

Only in this forum or elsewhere, we can discover what can go wrong with some M10, ...field lever lost, ISO stuck, and so on.

 

As side note, I have zero complain using M-A/MP (= film Ms) 😄.

Edited December 8, 2020 by a.noctilux

[Anbaric]

1 hour ago, gabrielaszalos said:

Not sure about that. For me it’s impossible and uncomfortable to efficiently turn the dial with my thumb. My forefinger on the other hand is easy. 

I don't mean I use my thumb on its own with the M6 (classic), but finger and thumb together to grasp the small dial (is that unusual?). So for me it's just as easy to think of the dial as a thumbwheel I'm adjusting from the back (which moves in the direction of the meter arrows). This would be counterintuitive with the M6 TTL/M7, where I suspect more people adjust the larger dial with just their forefingers, so it helps that the meter arrows match the direction the front of the dial is moving in. Must be confusing if you have Leicas with two different directions of rotation, though!