To trade or not to trade......

[Ktsa5239]

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Sorry for another M10 to M10R post...

In Australia, the trade in is fairly costly. I could potentially trade my M10 and the 16-18-21 WATE (used twice in the last 2 years) for the M10R, I'll still need to top up 3k so its a rather substantial investment. 

Ive hopped onto the SL2 earlier in the year, while it opened up new opportunities like long lenses for birds and macro for floral. I cant help but feel its not giving me the same experience I got from the M. I also find it too heavy as a system to carry for long hikes and trips and I really miss the M at those times.

The reason I really want to upgrade are:

1) Higher Dynamic Range (from reviews and photo samples)

2) Better highlight recovery (from reviews and photo samples)

3) Ability to crop with higher MP so I could travel with just a 35mm and maybe a 90mm 

The reasons against it:

1) Tie up a whole bunch of funds (I can only afford to this once really so if anything new comes along I wont be able to afford it) 

2) About the same sensor MP count as SL2 

3) M11 might have ibis.... or what if CL2 comes along with EVF and ibis and light 

Oh man....what should I do.....

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[ppolla]

I did trade it for the R. I also have the sl2. Seems to be a great combo

[Milan_S]

the M10-R is absolutely worth it, I love the DR and the skin tones. I also upgraded from the M10 and have zero regrets.

[LBJ2]

6 hours ago, Ktsa5239 said:

Sorry for another M10 to M10R post...

In Australia, the trade in is fairly costly. I could potentially trade my M10 and the 16-18-21 WATE (used twice in the last 2 years) for the M10R, I'll still need to top up 3k so its a rather substantial investment. 

Ive hopped onto the SL2 earlier in the year, while it opened up new opportunities like long lenses for birds and macro for floral. I cant help but feel its not giving me the same experience I got from the M. I also find it too heavy as a system to carry for long hikes and trips and I really miss the M at those times.

The reason I really want to upgrade are:

1) Higher Dynamic Range (from reviews and photo samples)

2) Better highlight recovery (from reviews and photo samples)

3) Ability to crop with higher MP so I could travel with just a 35mm and maybe a 90mm 

The reasons against it:

1) Tie up a whole bunch of funds (I can only afford to this once really so if anything new comes along I wont be able to afford it) 

2) About the same sensor MP count as SL2 

3) M11 might have ibis.... or what if CL2 comes along with EVF and ibis and light 

Oh man....what should I do.....

Time heals even the most severe GAS !

I don't think I've read many comments that don't praise the M10-R, highly. Many of us already know the M10 form factor is a beauty to behold and to use and now with an even better sensor that ups the DR and highlight recovery in the -R...all very compelling for those of us that appreciate such things. 

But when push comes to shove aka the M10-R price tag, I do wonder what many who do take the plunge is doing with the slightly better DR, Highlight Recovery, more pixels and and as some claim, better skin tones? Surely these nuanced improvements can't be wasted on just posting severely downsized jpeg files to the forum or to show friends and family on our smart phones or social media. Trust me, I do love to pixel peep all the MPs and marvel at all the detail I can snatch out of the shadows in post, but then what? 

BTW, I think your current setup of the SL2 and the M10 is more than a fine even enviable kit. You get your high MP fix with the SL2 and your Rangefinder fix with your humble 24MP M10 wink, wink. My guess is you've got some beautiful SL and M glass too. 

Also, keep in mind that our shops easy trade in programs = the ability to make even more money on us twice 🤔. If you can, resell any gear you don't use or want yourself is almost always a better ROI than trade-ins. Of course selling used gear can also be a PITA, but if you are not happy with your SL2, M10 and WATE, then I'd say you can raise some serious cash by selling these yourself.

[WvE]

If you feel you really need the R, get one.

Personally I'd wait for the M11 to arrive and see if that's worth upgrading to. In the meantime make lots of great pictures with your still wonderful M10 and save a load of money, for now. It's of course about the photographer, not so much the sensor tech.   

 

 

[Jeff S]

8 hours ago, Ktsa5239 said:

Oh man....what should I do.....

Take pictures.  Make prints.
 

The M10 is a terrific camera, fully capable of producing excellent files.
 

Regarding your #3 reason to switch, you apparently won’t have any money left to travel anyway.

GAS overrides logic and practicality.

Jeff

[Mikep996]

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Will you take better pictures with an R?  If so, buy one; if not, don't.

Frankly, I look at it the same way I look at guitars...does anybody listen to some great guitarist and then say, "Well, that was pretty good but think how much better it would have sounded on a [insert brand name] guitar!"  No, they don't.  In fact it's pretty much the opposite.  Any great artist can use any guitar (or piano, or violin, etc) and still sound like they sound.   

[jwr50]

I made the trade from an M10 to an M10-R, and I would do it again in a heartbeat.  It's the best Leica I've ever owned, and I started with an M3, which I still have and use.

Do I take better pictures with an M10-R? Who knows, but I do enjoy having the M10-R, and I've been exceptionally pleased with the images it produces -- even though the M10 likely would have given me similar results in most cases.  It's an individual decision that comes down to what equipment you enjoy using (not necessarily "need") and what your own circumstances are.  Thankfully, not all decision in life are driven by what we "need."

Edited November 17, 2020 by jwr50

[Good To Be Retired]

9 hours ago, Ktsa5239 said:

Sorry for another M10 to M10R post...

In Australia, the trade in is fairly costly. I could potentially trade my M10 and the 16-18-21 WATE (used twice in the last 2 years) for the M10R

I feel your pain :). I'm wrestling with a similar quandary myself.

Ive hopped onto the SL2 earlier in the year,............................................... I cant help but feel its not giving me the same experience I got from the M. I also find it too heavy as a system to carry for long hikes and trips and I really miss the M at those times.

Similar situation.  I recently bought into my 4th medium format system.  I understand heavy

The reason I really want to upgrade are:

3) Ability to crop with higher MP so I could travel with just a 35mm and maybe a 90mm 

Been experimenting with such a thing myself.  I used an M240 and a 28, 50, and a 90 the last time we went to France.  Much more pleasant than a pro body Nikon and three pro zooms.  We do mostly castles, cathedrals, ruins, that sort of thing.  24mp was sufficient for the things I wanted to crop, but not enough for architectural details.

I'm probably going to try something similar with a Hasselblad X1d II and a 45, 65, and 90.  Hopefully, the larger sensor will partially make up for lack of a really long lens.

The reasons against it:

1) ....................................if anything new comes along I wont be able to afford it) 

Yeah you will.  Trust me   You'll think of something

2) About the same sensor MP count as SL2 

3) M11 might have ibis.... or what if CL2 comes along with EVF and ibis and light 

Or what if somebody developed a 28 - 300 f1.2 superzoom about the size of a beer can with light weight and excellent image quality

Buy something you can use TODAY, not in 4 years.

Oh man....what should I do.....

Buy Baby, Buy.  Support your local economy.

 

Edited November 17, 2020 by Good To Be Retired

[Herr Barnack]

JMHO:

The M11 is a non-factor until Leica actually releases it.  We cannot predict when that will be.  Make your decisions based on the present, not the pie in the sky future release of the M11.

If you like to make large (bigger than 16x24 inch) prints, upgrading to the the M10R is worth considering.  If all you ever do is post images online and email them to friends, the M10R would be a very costly case of overkill.

If you are forced to choose between upgrading and being able to afford to travel and make new and interesting images - choose travel.

Edited November 17, 2020 by Herr Barnack

[SJH]

For me upgrading to an M10R from an M10P (and I traded my Q2 for further glass) was really the right thing to do for all the reasons already stated above, like you I have an SL2 also so the M10R upgrade squeezed out my Q2 as it was really was just too middle ground for me. Sometimes if I don't want to take an SL APO f2 lens I just put one of my M lenses on the SL2 and that works well for a lighter setup when you need it. I really love the fact that my M10R (& M10M) & SL2 all now have high resolution sensors and it often means I now travel (or walk is better description in current lockdowns!!) with just one M lens instead of two often before e.g. when I used to take a 35 & 50 I now just take the 35 so my kit has got lighter as result of the M10R purchase as well.

The M10R is really superb and I'd just go for it, I can't see an M11 for at least a 18 months to two years minimum now.

[RagingCANE]

I want to keep my M10-P because I like the matte black and inscription on the top, however, I will likely trade it for the M10-R when one is in stock.

[Ktsa5239]

You guys are right that this could be a serious case of GAS! I dont see myself ever printing big, so the only use for the large MP is mainly for cropping. 

I think I might keep my M10 and just save up for the M10R slowly (most likely going to take about 8 months to a year of intense saving!) Mainwhile, back to SL2 with M adapter !

 

[Dennis]

I was shooting years ago with a Nikon D810 as the primary camera. I was happy, but something was missing: a better AF, faster response, better low light performance. I was needing a quicker camera to be sure I don't lose moments. I mean, being faster so I can do a better job to tell a story, according to my way to shoot. I was looking for a much faster camera, this was my priority.
I traded, paid the difference, and it was the smart solutions. My photography improved, I'm faster with this camera, and I can't ask for more ... Except weight and size 😂 it. Although it was launched in January 2016 and the only 20MP, it's still my primary camera.
I don't know your photography style and your needs, but reading your post can say only two things: First, don't trade it. Keep what you have and use it. A camera is just a tool, the story is in front of you, and everything else is still in your mind. But with your current camera, you probably have already everything that you need

17 hours ago, Ktsa5239 said:

... and the 16-18-21 WATE (used twice in the last 2 years)

The second is ... Use more often the WATE! Once every year, it's no good at all. If you already have an expensive-amazing lens, use it. Instead of worrying about a better camera, use the gear you already have, and grow as a photographer. When you know the specific features you REALLY need, you will then find the perfect camera. IMHO, it's time to use what you already have.

Edited November 17, 2020 by Dennis

[Ktsa5239]

6 hours ago, Steven said:

Oh, and you forgot to mention another important reason to upgrade. The extremely good low capabilities of the R. WAY WAY better than the P. 

Here's a shot I just took at night, handheld, while moving. Perfectly clean image. The slight grain, I added in post processing. 

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Oh man ! Photos like this double down on the GAS ! I cant get that sort of crisp shot in low light with my M10. But I think much of that comes down to my poor skills.....

I originally got the WATE for landscape work but kinda regret it after using it once and just preferred a 35 for everything. In my head I know I dont need the new sensor but I just really really really want it

Edited November 18, 2020 by Ktsa5239

[SJH]

There lies the ‘Leica problem’ in that much as I loved my M10P having got an R I couldn’t go back. Why - well yes it does asssit you in taking better shots in a number of ways already mentioned and in Jono’s excellent review as well for example. However, it also ‘inspires’ you to get out and use and endeavour to be a better photographer. I’ve also found it liberating just to pick up my 28, 35, 75 or 50 only instead of perhaps taking two lenses for the day, low light appears to be better, managing highlights are definitely better than the M10P etc which you can read elsewhere as well.

As an SL2 user as well I’d suggest you just watch Hugh’s YouTube video around using the M10R and SL2. He’s pretty clear on why it inspired him and why he feels he got better shots with the M10R than the M10P he’d been lent by Leica previously, therefore he wants one.

 

Edited November 18, 2020 by SJH

[LBJ2]

11 hours ago, Ktsa5239 said:

Oh man ! Photos like this double down on the GAS ! I cant get that sort of crisp shot in low light with my M10. But I think much of that comes down to my poor skills.....

I originally got the WATE for landscape work but kinda regret it after using it once and just preferred a 35 for everything. In my head I know I dont need the new sensor but I just really really really want it

You are not alone. Once we learn to appreciate Leica cameras and lenses and in my case the Leica M experience and IQ, hard not to do whatever it takes to get the latest greatest Leica camera and lens. My current dream list:

1. SL2 + SL 35/2 APO. I don't want any other current SL lens. Just the 35/2 APO and I'll buy the SL2 just to accommodate the 35/2 APO. Madness--but this is a "dream" list ha ha

2. M10-R. I already have all the Leica M lenses I want/need so just a matter of time or right opportunity before I upgrade M10 to M10R. However, every time I edit my 24Mp images on my pixel busting iMac 5K Retina, I fall in love with 24 M10 MPs all over again so I am in no hurry. 

One of my latest favorite 24MP images with THE f0,95 lens

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Edited November 18, 2020 by LBJ2

[budjames]

I traded one of my two M10s in for the M10-R. No regrets, other than the cost.

I also have an SL2. I agree with a previous poster that the M10-R is a nice complement to the SL2.

My first Leica, the M10 that I purchased in November 2017, was sent to Leica for a factory conversion to an M10-P. It was the first one done in the USA. This is the M10 that I still have and I reluctant to sell or trade it because it's my first Leica.

Since buying the M10-R two months ago, my M10-P sits on a shelf.

Regards,
Bud James

Please check out my fine art and travel photography at www.budjames.photography or on Instagram at www.instagram.com/budjamesphoto.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[fsprow]

I think any upgrade in equipment depends on how you use your images.  If enjoying posting them on the web, sharing them on smartphones etc. - I believe we are well beyond the point where image quality improvements are important.  However, if you make large prints, as I do, MP and other improvements (sensor size...) are noticeable and can improve the impact of the photograph - that is another story.  My Hasselblad H6D-100C allows large prints that are noticeably better than from my other cameras - at least to me and those that they are made for. And my short time borrowing a friend's M10R showed it to be very impressive indeed and outstanding for its size..

Edited November 26, 2020 by fsprow

[Guest Nowhereman]

Ktsa5239 - You haven't said anything about what your photography is like, so no one can judge whether you  would benefit from the higher resolution of the M10-R. I know that I don't need one: my images don't depend on resolution — and what I get from the M10 is enough. Some people who have the M10-R say that they like its greater dynamic range and its greater ability to lift shadows. My feeling is that the M10's shadow recovery is sufficiently large and I'm skeptical about the M10-R having more dynamic range: the data on the https://www.photonstophotos.net website indicates otherwise. There are also indications that the M10-R bands at higher ISOs more than the M10. Finally, I still prefer a 24 MP camera for its smaller files and for the advantages of  not having to shoot at higher shutter speeds than with the higher-MP M10-R, in order to keep sharpness.

I'm not trying to discourage you from buying the M10-R but am only pointing to the issues that more megapixel don't necessary mean better images and the need to determine whether our photography would benefit from that. Below are a few images that I've posted elsewhere recently, which I mean to show why, for this type of photography, I don't need the new camera.
 

M10 | Summaron-M 1:5.6/28 | ISO 200 | f/5.6 | 1/60sec | Chiang Mai

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M10 | Summaron-M5 1:5.6/28 | ISO 800 | f/5.6 | 1/350 sec | Bangkok

 

M9 | Elmarit-21 ASPH | ISO 640 | f/8.0 | 1/350 sec | Paris

 

M10 | DR Summicron 50 | ISO 400 | f/5.6 | 1/60 sec | Bangkok
________________________
Frog Leaping photobook

Edited November 26, 2020 by Nowhereman