Leica M10 frame line lever

[MikeMyers]

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I bought a new Leica M10 from B&H Photo back in April this year.  I used it until the virus hit, and I mostly stopped taking photos.  I haven't been using it until yesterday.  I don't think I ever used the frame line adjuster at the left - so it might have been in the same position since Leica first built the camera.

Yesterday I went through the menus and videos, relearning the menu, and all the fine points of using a Leica - lots of things I either didn't know from before, or didn't pay much attention to, or forgot.  Then I looked through the viewfinder to see what frame line adjustments I had, and went to move the lever to a different position.   The lever felt like it didn't move freely. After moving it back and forth several times, it quickly loosened up.  Now it works perfectly.

My best guess is sitting unused for a year or two, that lever or something it connects to just somehow got bound up. 

The camera did come with a full new camera warranty, and I have whatever warranty B&H provide as well.

Do I just forget about this, and make sure to move the lever every so often, or should I call Leica Camera?  There's nothing to fix, but I don't think this should have happened in the first place.

Advice?

[earleygallery]

If it ain't broke then don't fix it.

[Joe Zobkiw]

I've found that if the lens is not seated completed it can muck with the lever. If you are changing lenses regularly make sure they click into place well when attaching them.

[lucerne]

The frame line lever only allows you to visualise what your alternative views would be if you changed lenses. In other words, you may have a 50mm fitted and want to see what your view would be if you swapped your 50 for a 75.  You will temporarily see alternative framelines.    Other than the frame mask, It doesnt connect to anything.  and has no effect on the capture which remains dependent on the lens fitted.

hope that helps.

[robsonj]

In addition to what Lucerne said, I think if you have a 35 mounted, you can only move the lever to the 50, 75, 90 frame lines and if you have a 50 mounted, you can only see the 75 and 90 framelines etc

[lucerne]

I find it more confusing than beneficial and tend not to use the feature.  The frames are presented in pairs.

Leica removed the lever on one M model a few years ago, but users complained of being short-changed so it was re-introduced.

[earleygallery]

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It's actually there for people who want to use a 40mm lens. They can flick between the 35 and 50 frame lines to get a better idea of what will be included in their shot.

[Kwesi]

1 hour ago, earleygallery said:

It's actually there for people who want to use a 40mm lens. They can flick between the 35 and 50 frame lines to get a better idea of what will be included in their shot.

???!

[Joe Zobkiw]

Bottom line, it gets set to whatever the attached lens sets it to. You can move it to the other two positions manually but it will spring back to the "lens" position. It can be helpful if you want to think about cropping or something as well, but generally I never use it except at the lens-defined position. It's a fun mechanical switch 🙂

[MikeMyers]

18 hours ago, Joe Zobkiw said:

I've found that if the lens is not seated completed it can muck with the lever. If you are changing lenses regularly make sure they click into place well when attaching them.

While I don't know for sure if this is what happened, your reply is the only one that might be an answer to my issue (which is no longer an issue).  Maybe unintentionally, I didn't fully lock the lens in place when I put the camera away, and months later when I used the lever (probably for the first time I've ever done so on the camera) it felt like something internally was sticking, and the frame lines I saw in the viewfinder were something BETWEEN the normal setting.  There were parts of frame lines only, not the normal view.  Now it works fine.  

I agree with the person who said "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".  But I still feel I should get it on record, so if it DOES go bad in the future, they will know that it happened only a few months after I bought the camera.  

I will call either or both - B&H, and Leica - and see if I can report it, even though it now works properly.

[Joe Zobkiw]

3 minutes ago, MikeMyers said:

While I don't know for sure if this is what happened, your reply is the only one that might be an answer to my issue (which is no longer an issue).  Maybe unintentionally, I didn't fully lock the lens in place when I put the camera away, and months later when I used the lever (probably for the first time I've ever done so on the camera) it felt like something internally was sticking, and the frame lines I saw in the viewfinder were something BETWEEN the normal setting.  There were parts of frame lines only, not the normal view.  Now it works fine.  

I agree with the person who said "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".  But I still feel I should get it on record, so if it DOES go bad in the future, they will know that it happened only a few months after I bought the camera.  

I will call either or both - B&H, and Leica - and see if I can report it, even though it now works properly.

Thanks - I had this exact thing happen to me on my M10-P - freaked me out for a minute, then I removed the lens and watched carefully and felt the resistance as I put the lens back on. It's certainly a nice mechanical system but it can be sensitive at times. My situation was with a Voigtlander lens - not sure if other lenses would have the same issue or not - I think it was just a fluke in my case. Good luck and enjoy your camera! 🙂 

[MikeMyers]

Thank you for posting that - it's not only a reasonable explanation, but knowing it happened to you makes it very likely that's what happened to me.  I probably put a different lens on the camera, then put it in the safe.  Nowadays, when I change lenses, I always listen for the CLICK.

Thanks for the best wishes too - my main cameras are the M10 and a Nikon Df.  With the Df I don't need to think about what I'm doing.  With the M10 I find that I ALWAYS have to think about what I'm doing.  I'm forcing myself to use it as much as possible, unless there is a reason why I have to use a DSLR.  

The biggest limitation so far, is not being able to focus as close as I need to.  But the images are so good, I can usually resolve that by cropping.

Also, nothing happens "naturally".  I'm spoiled.  I think the camera should focus itself, but the only way I'll get around this is by using it a lot, and with the virus out there, I'm not going out looking for photos nearly as often as I used to.....

[robsonj]

I just tried it on my m10r with the 35 summilux attached, it moves freely in both directions now, so much have been the lens I had attached before, and coming from a 240 I had assumed that was how it worked.

[TomB_tx]

Regarding the use of the frame line lever: It was quite useful when I got my M4 in 1968, with a clip-on LeicaMeter MR. That meter measured within a 90mm FOV, so with a 35 or 50 mm lens just moving the preview lever to the 90mm position would show the metering area.

The 90mm frame is still a good approximation of the M10 center-weighted metering area, and can be a good reminder of how the meter is evaluating the scene. If you set up a pen-light aimed at the camera in a darkened room and watch the meter as you move the VF around, you'll see how the meter responds mainly in the 90mm FOV. OF course, with experience you can judge the area without resorting to a preview of the frame.

[mujk]

2 hours ago, TomB_tx said:

Regarding the use of the frame line lever: It was quite useful when I got my M4 in 1968, with a clip-on LeicaMeter MR. That meter measured within a 90mm FOV, so with a 35 or 50 mm lens just moving the preview lever to the 90mm position would show the metering area.

The 90mm frame is still a good approximation of the M10 center-weighted metering area, and can be a good reminder of how the meter is evaluating the scene. If you set up a pen-light aimed at the camera in a darkened room and watch the meter as you move the VF around, you'll see how the meter responds mainly in the 90mm FOV. OF course, with experience you can judge the area without resorting to a preview of the frame.

This depends on the focal length of the lens, because in current Ms exposure is metered through the lens and is consequently always the same percentage of the frame size. The VF has a fixed magnification, so the size of the metering area becomes smaller in the VF with increasing focal length. There used to be a graph showing the metering area size in the VF for different focal lengths in the manual of film Leicas.

[TomB_tx]

7 minutes ago, mujk said:

This depends on the focal length of the lens, because in current Ms exposure is metered through the lens and is consequently always the same percentage of the frame size. The VF has a fixed magnification, so the size of the metering area becomes smaller in the VF with increasing focal length. There used to be a graph showing the metering area size in the VF for different focal lengths in the manual of film Leicas.

You are right - since the LeicaMeter MR was external, the 90 frame was always accurate for metering, but with the M10 (ttl) it is reasonable between 35 & 50 lenses. Since that's about all I use on an M camera (95+% of the time) I ignore the others. I've always tested the metering area of my cameras using a point light source. 

[adan]

6 hours ago, MikeMyers said:

With the M10 I find that I ALWAYS have to think about what I'm doing.  I'm forcing myself to use it as much as possible, unless there is a reason why I have to use a DSLR.

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Anyway - the frameline lever is just one part of a very complex frame-setting mechanism with multiple overrides powered by springs or finger pressure.

The lever will (temporarily) override the mounted lens - but springs will also override the lever when it is released, to hand back control of framing to the lens flange.

This also occurs in the foil-thin metal viewfinder masks themselves, which are moved one direction by the lens or the lever, but will spring back to the "35/135" setting if no lens is mounted and the front lever is not pushed (as well as force the frames to "follow" the focus mechanisn for parallax correction at different distances)

At any rate, the springs actually in the viewfinder are very small and delicate hairsprings. It does not take much dust or grease or stress-bending in storage to lock them up and lead to "half-and-half" framelines. With the M6 and later cameras, Leica added a "centering spring" with detents, that is supposed to force the frames to "snap" to one position or another rather than stick halfway in between - but it too can get gummed up.

Leitz and Zeiss/Contax had tried for years to come up with a multi-frameline viewfinder that also incorporated the rangefinder (i.e. zooming wouldn't work). It is apocryphally reported that when Leitz finally solved the problem with the M3 ("Meßsucher: 3 frames), and revealed it at the photokina show of 1954, the CEO of Zeiss came over, shook the hand of Ernst Leitz III, and told him, "You win!" Zeiss phased out its Contax RFs soon afterward.

I don't think any RF makers, except Mamiya with the 6/7, has ever managed to successfully copy the auto-indexing of framelines that Leitz/Leica achieved. Nikon, Canon and the "new" Voigtlander all settled for manual frameline setting with dials, or permanent silvered brightlines.

[lucerne]

Adan.   Thats a very interesting description of the follow focus, parallax and frameline operation.  At one time with my M9 I suspected that i was seeing parallax correction but couldnt be sure and it never repeated itself.    Is the full parallax correction actually still a feature of digital M bodies?     How would it work on live view.

Thanks for your contribution to what i happily (and blindly) considered a simple body feature. i.e. framelines.

[Jeff S]

13 minutes ago, lucerne said:

Adan.   Thats a very interesting description of the follow focus, parallax and frameline operation.  At one time with my M9 I suspected that i was seeing parallax correction but couldnt be sure and it never repeated itself.    Is the full parallax correction actually still a feature of digital M bodies?     How would it work on live view.

Thanks for your contribution to what i happily (and blindly) considered a simple body feature. i.e. framelines.

Hardly simple (and essentially same as M8 below)....

Jeff

Edited November 12, 2020 by Jeff S

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[MikeMyers]

I called Leica today - I still have about a year and a half left of my two year warranty, so no need to send it in now.  I'll see how it behaves in the future.

Thanks for the above postings - fascinating.

So that's why the Contax IIa and IIIa never got updated?