Not The APO Of My Eye

[fotografr]

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3 hours ago, Ko.Fe. said:

I only checked my Rigid, V3 and V4 for focus shifts. Not all Crons I used to have. All tested did focus shifted. It is known fact. Not my personal observation.

My v4 was optimized for f2 and close, mid distances. It wasn't "a bad copy".

As for v4 vail flare it is well known defect. It happens if you take image in certain position of the sun in the frame.  Again, just google it.

Or are you saying where are so many bad copies for legendary quality Leitz lenses? My copy of ZM 50/2 had no focus shift, btw. Again, I was anal enough to check it with test target. Same I used to check Rigid, v3 and v4.

I'm not trying to start an argument. I'm only telling you what I've experienced with my lens. I am not personally attacking you by wondering if you had a bad copy. Please do not take my questions as personal insults. They are not.

I've checked my lens thoroughly. I do not have focus shift with my lens. I also do not have flare problems. I've actually tried to induce flare by shooting straight into a bare light bulb and outside straight into direct sun. In numerous attempts, I was only able to create flare once.

Again, this is only my experience. I am making no judgements about anyone else's lens. It really makes no difference to me whether others agree with my assessment of this lens or not. I'm extremely happy with it and that's all that matters. 

The guy who did the review linked below seems to have the same opinion of the V4 that I do.

https://www.streetsilhouettes.com/home/2019/3/1/the-uncelebrated-forty-year-anniversary-of-the-leica-50mm-f2-summicron-m-version-iv

Edited November 1, 2020 by fotografr

[lct]

Got my first 50/2 v4 in 1981 (IIRC) and kept it since then. A cute Canadian copy with "tiger claw" focus tab and a couple of metal and plastic hoods. I have a late copy from Germany too with normal focus tab and 6-bit coding. I have a v5 also, with 6-bit coding too. All do flare like hell when and where i want them to... and do not flare at all when and where i want them not to .  BTW they have all a bit of focus shift as well. Easy to manage with an EVF, less so with an RF as usual. FWIW.

Edited November 1, 2020 by lct

[fotografr]

45 minutes ago, lct said:

BTW they have all a bit of focus shift as well. Easy to manage with an EVF, less so with an RF as usual. FWIW.

Mine is also a German copy with the normal tab. I'm sure you're right about focus shift. I just haven't been able to find it yet on mine. I think focus shift is a fact of life with any fast M lens. I took my 50 Summilux out to have Don Goldberg adjust it because it was front focusing. He told me Leica intentionally builds that in to compensate for the back focusing that occurs as you stop down. I didn't ask him if that was the case with other M lenses.

Edited November 1, 2020 by fotografr

[RayD28]

I have a Midland copy of the v4 and can't say enough good things about it.  I get some purple fringing in high contrast but it's simple to fix in PP.  I love the lens for it's size and the focus tab.  I have a DR that lives on the M3 and use the v4 for my other film cameras and for digital.  The Summilux ASPH lives on the shelf but it is the finest lens I have, but most of the time I don't need the finest so it just waits for its turn.  

[strohscw]

Am 31.10.2020 um 14:26 schrieb fotografr:

I'm sure I'll find disagreement with this, so let me start by saying this is only my experience and opinion and reflects only my perceptions.

I'm essentially a 50mm M shooter. It's by far my favorite focal length. Because of that, I've always read about different versions with great interest and have owned a bevy of them. There were raves about the 50mm APO Summicron when it was introduced so my interest was piqued. Then I read about flare problems so I held off. Eventually I jumped in with the standard version. It was sharp and functionally perfect, but I just wasn't overly impressed with it. I thought maybe it was just an odd copy, so I decided to sell it and move up a notch to the black chrome version.

After using the BC for several months I remained unimpressed. Again, it was clinically perfect, razor sharp edge to edge, but it just didn't have any kind of personality or uniqueness.

I recalled having been very happy in past years with the 50mm Summicron, type 4, so I started looking and very quickly found a mint copy which I recently purchased. It's absolutely fantastic and in my opinion better in many ways than the 50mm APO BC.  I detect no differe,nce in sharpness and much prefer the way the old lens renders. To my eye it has a nicer bokeh and is somewhat less contrasty--an advantage when shooting with the Monochrom. It's also considerably smaller, lighter and several thousand dollars less costly.

So, here I am having gone through all these 50s, including several Summiluxes, both pre-asph and asph, various newer versions of Summicrons, only to end up with a 30 year old lens that I prefer over all the others. And I couldn't be happier about it. Walter Mandler really got it right with this lens.

" it just didn't have any kind of personality or uniqueness"

For me the lens has to be sharp, to have a smooth transition from sharp to unsharp and a smooth and even unsharp area. To give the picture personality and uniqueness is, in my opinion, the job of the photographer. The problem with requesting this from the lens is that every photogrpher has ists own understanding of personality or uniqueness.

So when I am deciding for a lens my main requirement is that the unsharp area is not to aggressive, the "background" should stay in the background.

[Rob L]

Every 50mm Summicron I've had (and 75mm) had bad veiling flare (loss of contrast). I've had at least 3 or 4 each of DRs, Rigids and v5s. And veiling flare with a Leica M is a bit of a problem because you can't see it in the viewfinder generally.

[fotografr]

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11 hours ago, strohscw said:

" it just didn't have any kind of personality or uniqueness"

For me the lens has to be sharp, to have a smooth transition from sharp to unsharp and a smooth and even unsharp area. To give the picture personality and uniqueness is, in my opinion, the job of the photographer. The problem with requesting this from the lens is that every photogrpher has ists own understanding of personality or uniqueness.

So when I am deciding for a lens my main requirement is that the unsharp area is not to aggressive, the "background" should stay in the background.

I don't think we disagree here. It's actually one reason my Noctilux gets so little use. That lens makes such a strong statement wide open that it often gets in the way of the image, so to speak.

The photographer does, indeed, make the image, but all else being equal the lens can make one image stand out over another. If all one was looking for in a lens was sharpness and a smooth transition from the focused to oof areas, there are at least a dozen far less expensive options than Leica. What I've been talking about here are essentially intangible qualities, things that can't be objectively measured with tests and charts. I firmly believe that some of the older Leica lenses, particularly the Mandler designs, have unique characteristics--primarily in the way they render unsharp areas--that are not found in other lenses. If I didn't hold that opinion, I'd be shooting with Nikon, Canon or Sony cameras.

This is why my 30 year old Summicron appeals more to me than the new, extremely perfect 50 APO.  It's not something I can quantify. Both are sharp but my older lens does a better job with oof areas, in my opinion.

Regarding the flare issue that keeps coming up here, I've tried numerous times to create flare by shooting straight into light sources and at various angles where strong light hits the lens directly (sans shade) and I've only been able to cause it once out of about 30 attempts. I'm not saying it doesn't exist, but I doubt it's going to be a big problem for me.

I have also done focus chart tests to check for shift. I does happen, but it's so insignificant with my copy that I'd never notice it without pixel peeping.

The bottom line is that different people look for different qualities in a lens. It's all just personal preference and what's right for me may or may not be right for others.

Edited November 2, 2020 by fotografr

[RF’sDelight]

Pictorial interlude. 😁 Unfortunately I didn't do a serious comparison of IQ yet.
(From the left: V5, APO, V4)

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[fotografr]

43 minutes ago, RF’sDelight said:

Pictorial interlude. 😁 Unfortunately I didn't do a serious comparison of IQ yet.
(From the left: V5, APO, V4)

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They are all beautiful.

[RF’sDelight]

vor 1 Minute schrieb fotografr:

They are all beautiful.

Aren't they? 😎 Thx!

[Jeff S]

On 11/1/2020 at 11:36 AM, fotografr said:

 I also do not have flare problems. I've actually tried to induce flare by shooting straight into a bare light bulb and outside straight into direct sun. In numerous attempts, I was only able to create flare once.

 

I believe the pre-1994 versions required a separate hood (built-in thereafter). Just curious if you’ve used a hood for shooting/testing, or used without.  I’m under the impression that despite v.4/v.5 changes over the years (tab/no tab, separate vs built in hood, etc), that the optics have remained unchanged. I’ve read posts here about flaring with the latest version, but opinions and experiences seem to vary.  I wonder if the version/date, and/or hood type/usage, has any bearing.  

Regarding the APO 50 BC, I’m probably going to trade mine and use the funds for a 35 Summilux FLE. I have no issues with the APO rendering, but I find myself using my 50 Summilux ASPH most all the time. I’ve been kicking around the idea of adding the FLE to my long used v.1 35 Summicron ASPH; no use keeping money tied up in little used 50 APO, however nice it is.

Jeff

Edited November 6, 2020 by Jeff S

[fotografr]

8 hours ago, Jeff S said:

I believe the pre-1994 versions required a separate hood (built-in thereafter). Just curious if you’ve used a hood for shooting/testing, or used without.  I’m under the impression that despite v.4/v.5 changes over the years (tab/no tab, separate vs built in hood, etc), that the optics have remained unchanged. I’ve read posts here about flaring with the latest version, but opinions and experiences seem to vary.  I wonder if the version/date, and/or hood type/usage, has any bearing.  

Regarding the APO 50 BC, I’m probably going to trade mine and use the funds for a 35 Summilux FLE.

Jeff

I believe you are correct about the optics. My copy was made in 1989. I haven't been using a hood but will probably pick one up, although it's very nice using it without one because the lens is so compact. I've been able to induce flare a couple of times now but essentially only when shooting straight into the sun--something I'm not normally inclined to do. In my opinion, the problem is somewhat overblown, at least for most shooting situations.

I think you'll be delighted with the 35 FLE.  It's an outstanding lens.

Brent

Edited November 7, 2020 by fotografr

[fotografr]

On 11/2/2020 at 12:10 AM, strohscw said:

" it just didn't have any kind of personality or uniqueness"

For me the lens has to be sharp, to have a smooth transition from sharp to unsharp and a smooth and even unsharp area. To give the picture personality and uniqueness is, in my opinion, the job of the photographer. The problem with requesting this from the lens is that every photogrpher has ists own understanding of personality or uniqueness.

So when I am deciding for a lens my main requirement is that the unsharp area is not to aggressive, the "background" should stay in the background.

We do agree on this and your comment motivated me to shoot a couple of images that show the transition I believe you are referring to with the lens wide open.

Best Regards,

Brent

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[fotografr]

One more.

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