24meg verses 40meg aesthetic

[MarkP]

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The SL2 is a fabulous camera. Very versatile but I still prefer the M system for it's elegance and simplicity.
I love the M9M and it's output, but the M10 is more versatile for all the obvious reasons.

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[LocalHero1953]

I have three cameras as well (CL, SL2 and fp): am I supposed to pick one? I can play along with that: today I'd pick a M10R. Tomorrow I might feel different.

9 hours ago, steve 1959 said:

Funnily enough one of the films i was thinking of was "gentlemen prefer blondes" because of its stunning colour.

Great link.

A great analogy for the whole thread (and possibly for this and any other equipment-centric forum). Was Gentlemen Prefer Blondes successful because it used Technicolor? Or possibly for other reasons - actresses, storyline, cinematography🤔. I'm on this forum (and reading this thread) because I have a strain of geekiness in me. But I try not to convince myself that it has anything to do with whether my photos are any good or not: 24mp/40mp, or, to pick other threads at random, CD/PD AF, IBIS.....

I can think of a few photographers who are strongly associated with particular photographic hardware and its capabilities, but it's hard work thinking of more than Cartier-Bresson (Leica), Ansel Adams (large format), or Gjon Mili (electronic flash). I'm sure others could name more, but equipment is just not something that normally determines successful/memorable/enduring photography.

Edited October 29, 2020 by LocalHero1953

[MarkP]

4 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

I have three cameras as well (CL, SL2 and fp): am I supposed to pick one? I can play along with that: today I'd pick a M10R. Tomorrow I might feel different.

 

He didn't ask about my film cameras 🙂

Edited October 29, 2020 by MarkP

[LocalHero1953]

1 minute ago, MarkP said:

He didn't ask about my film cameras 🙂

And I'd forgotten my smartphone, and a pinhole camera I have that was given away with the Daily Mail some time in the 30s. Choices, choices... 

[Raymondl]

@Steven were you planning to do some sample pics for a comparison to illustrate the aesthetic differences between 24mp and 40mp?
 

Understand this thread is a conversation piece but I am keen to know where you plan to take this ?  Were you planning on writing up an article on petapixel ? were you going to do a blind test on social media ? 

[strohscw]

The less I have to think about cameras the more I can concentrate on the picture.

I think that today almost all brands deliver great cameras, You only have to select the single one that You can handle blind and allows You to put all Your focus on the picture.

My 2c

[jaapv]

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1 hour ago, Steven said:

I don’t think that’s a good point at all. Of course an untrained viewer is not gonna know which camera you used. For that matter, even the ceo of Leica himself might not know. 
But you as the photographer might have been able or not able to get the shot you wanted to put out to the viewer with one piece equipment or not. 
You seem to imply that gear doesn’t matter because the viewer doesn’t know which gear you use. To me, gear matters a lot because it’s the tool that will let you express your vision. 
 

Not a very good argument as -unless you document your entire life in a continuous video stream- the number of photographs you didn't take runs into the trillions. The occasional one you miss because of gear lack, pales into insignificance.

[Tom1234]

On 10/27/2020 at 12:21 AM, elmars said:

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Sorry to have appeared to insult the M10-R.  Look at my later posts and I give the opposite view.  As do others.  

I just think a bit of softening is needed on the m10-R to remove any harshness that comes through due to the higher resolution. 

You may well own a historic breakthrough camera. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Tom1234]

On 10/28/2020 at 6:00 AM, Steven said:

Thanks. It’s called Beginning.

Will it be available for sale on Amazon.com in a USA DVD format?

[jaapv]

On 10/28/2020 at 7:25 AM, Tom1234 said:

SUMMARY:  I started this mess so maybe I can finish it.  My apologies to all you life time Photoshop users that have heard it all before.

Hope you will post here what you learn about handling the M10-R increased resolution.  M10-R plus slider modifications may well meet and exceed M10 out of the camera box images.  One famous Leica photographer charges I think $600 USD for this information. 

To make sure we see the extra M10-R 40 meg resolution, the sharpness and contrast had to be adjusted by Leica to a certain high enough level, that obviously seems harsh to some of us, who prefer the 24meg file's aesthetic.  This may be a marketing tweak decision that causes unfair judgements about the camera's abilities compared to other cameras. 

If that sharpness and contrast is turned down a bit, that might make us love the M10-R above all others.  So the modern sensor aesthetic's come from some camera's files plus some set of slider modifications.  

Thus Leica has made a high resolution tool so great that we have yet to understand how best to use it. 

Yet cameras all get a reputation according to what file characteristics they initially put out.  We put a name on this initial reputation with the most convenient term, in this case 24 or 40 meg aesthetic.  Pardon me for patronizing my own Thread Title. 

BACKSTORY: Back in the film days when MTF charts were studied like pixels are now, I remember seeing pictures, the lightest-etchings, made by lenses pushed to their limits in the 40 line pairs segment (40 line pairs is of course 80 line).  These 80 lines had lower contrast that softened the extra resolution of the image in a beautiful way.  

Handling a lack of resolution- Back with 6 and 12 meg low resolution sensors, the approach might have been to INCREASE contrast-&-sharpness, and then, to be carful to NOT oversize the image to where you notice the jagged edges.  

Handling an excess of resolution- Now with the 40 meg plus resolution sensors, the better approach might be to LOWER the contrast-&-sharpness settings a bit to avoid too many high contrast edges that could irritate.  Here it is that M10-R sits proudly displaying its great resolving ability that needs for some of us only a slight softening to satisfy.

"Sharpness" in Photoshop -and other editing programs- IS nothing but contrast manipulation; it has nothing to do with sensor acuity or resolution.

[Tom1234]

5 minutes ago, jaapv said:

"Sharpness" in Photoshop -and other editing programs- IS nothing but contrast manipulation; it has nothing to do with sensor acuity or resolution.

Thank you.  I comment on this elsewhere that those old lens effects seen in MTF charts are apparently not reproducible exactly in software though some software attempts to approximate them. 

[jaapv]

That is right -  shifting bytes will not add to the actual content of the file.

[Tailwagger]

5 hours ago, Steven said:

I don’t think that’s a good point at all. 
...To me, gear matters a lot because it’s the tool that will let you express your vision. 
 

When I view an interesting  photograph, I rarely ask myself what equipment it was made with.  I ask myself how it was made, not what it was made with. Only children believe buying a pair of Air Jordans will turn them into Mike. 

 

 

 

[Jeff S]

6 hours ago, Steven said:

I don’t think that’s a good point at all. Of course an untrained viewer is not gonna know which camera you used. For that matter, even the ceo of Leica himself might not know. 
But you as the photographer might have been able or not able to get the shot you wanted to put out to the viewer with one piece equipment or not. 
You seem to imply that gear doesn’t matter because the viewer doesn’t know which gear you use. To me, gear matters a lot because it’s the tool that will let you express your vision. 
 

The originally excerpted quote was mine. Experience tells me that viewers don’t know or care about my gear, especially if I do my job well and the picture/print stands on its own merits. I never said that the gear doesn’t matter to me; it does, but not because of some specific aesthetic that it supposedly generates (the thread topic).  Lots of gear these days, from various brands, is capable of producing superb results in the right hands. People can produce fine results with modest gear, and crappy results using the latest and greatest; as it always was, film or digital.  I have a range of criteria and priorities for choosing gear, including but not limited to basic issues such as the viewing/focusing  system (critical how I see the subject), the ergonomics and handling, the control interface, the native lens line options, etc, and occasionally specific requirements such as weather sealing, etc. As far as results, however, the most important tools are between the ears.  

Jeff

[Matlock]

9 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

The originally excerpted quote was mine. Experience tells me that viewers don’t know or care about my gear, especially if I do my job well and the picture/print stands on its own merits. I never said that the gear doesn’t matter to me; it does, but not because of some specific aesthetic that it supposedly generates (the thread topic).  Lots of gear these days, from various brands, is capable of producing superb results in the right hands. People can produce fine results with modest gear, and crappy results using the latest and greatest; as it always was, film or digital.  I have a range of criteria and priorities for choosing gear, including but not limited to basic issues such as the viewing/focusing  system (critical how I see the subject), the ergonomics and handling, the control interface, the native lens line options, etc, and occasionally specific requirements such as weather sealing, etc. As far as results, however, the most important tools are between the ears.  

Jeff

I have had many of my photos published, two of the most popular were taken with a Kodak Autographic Folding Brownie and a Voigtlander Brilliant borrowed from my father back in 1960. I never give technical details so no one will ever know which those two were (or care anyway).

[Joe Zobkiw]

Great question. I shoot a Q2 and an M10-P. I bought the Q2 first and it was my first Leica. I added the M10-P over the M10-R because why do I need a 40mp camera when I have a 47mp camera? Plus I found it brand new for $500 off the going price - thank you Amazon! Anyway...

I tend to gravitate towards the M10-P and absolutely love the shots that come out of it. I prefer instant gratification in my photography and therefore only shoot high-quality JPG and perform the most minimal of edits if any. The shots out of the M10-P are certainly more organic and imperfect than the Q2 in my experience. The Q2 is more clinical for me. When I want a "perfect" shot, I reach for the Q2. When I want something a little more warm or artistic, I reach for the M10-P. Your mileage may vary.

I think it's important to remember that these are tools...instruments. You wouldn't chastise a musician playing the Fender Jazz Bass for not playing jazz on the bass or for using certain strings, etc. The magic of these cameras is that there are many ways to use and connect to them. They are our artistic tools and however we get satisfaction out of them is all that matters.

PS: I recently had an experience where I absolutely loved the shots coming out of a photographer on Instagram. Weeks into being inspired by her work, I read in her profile that all the photos were taken with an iPhone 5! Just goes to show you - the equipment *really* doesn't matter. The joy you get out of it does.

Edited October 29, 2020 by Joe Zobkiw
added PS

[Tailwagger]

12 minutes ago, Joe Zobkiw said:

PS: I recently had an experience where I absolutely loved the shots coming out of a photographer on Instagram. Weeks into being inspired by her work, I read in her profile that all the photos were taken with an iPhone 5! Just goes to show you - the equipment *really* doesn't matter. The joy you get out of it does.

With the obvious caveat that viewing on instagram doesn't demand as much from the image as an A1 print.  Which isn't to say that some iPhone5 files might not get there in a convincing manner, dunno, never tried, but it would certainly require some work.  

[Jeff S]

19 minutes ago, Steven said:

I have EXACTLY the same experience than you with my Q2 and my M10P. I feel word for word the same way than you. The only difference is that I got the M10P before the Q2. I wanted both looks. 

So you shoot JPEGS and use minimal post  processing as he does for “instant gratification”?  Each of us is indeed entitled to our own preferences and workflow. My objective is to make fine prints that embody my own style and interpretation, not dictated by the camera and built-in software, starting with the RAW file and proceeding with however much (or little) effort required.  No wonder we reach different conclusions.
 

Jeff

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[Jeff S]

12 minutes ago, Steven said:

Oops, of course no. My bad. Not exactly the same indeed. I don’t shoot jpegs and never will. I was referring to how I feel about the results I get with one or the other. One renders imperfect, soft, classical (maybe also due to my lens choice). The other with high MP and a modern lens is very clinical. I like both. If I had to chose one id keep the M. 

Might be a good exercise to see if you can equalize the results, or even transform one to the other, even if that’s not your normal method. I’m not suggesting that one approach is better or worse, but might be an instructive experience.  Everything matters... lenses, processing, paper choice, lighting (capture and display),  etc, etc, etc....and mostly your vision and decision making. 

Jeff

[Joe Zobkiw]

1 hour ago, Steven said:

That sounds like an awesome challenge, which I accept. I think i will manage to make the q2 look more like the m10p (with the 35 Lux). The other way around will be much harder if course. Let’s see. 

Steven, Just followed you on the gram to see your work - holy-number-of-followers-batman! 🙂

One thing I added to my Q2 recently and have been enjoying is the Tiffen 1/8 black pro mist filter. I tried 1/4 first but it was not subtle enough. The 1/8 is a nice complement to the lens and I pretty much leave it on all the time as of late. The goal being to give a little softness. So far so good.