No more Leica in my life

[jdlaing]

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1 minute ago, vwillrocku said:

I also wonder if it is related to heat before. But it even happens at the beginning of shooting session when the camera is cool. So it is not temperature dependent. When the camera is hot, the major problem I face is the LV button jammed and hard to be pressed or refuse to rebound. This is the problem Leica unable to fix.

Look at the user manual and read the temperature high and low limits for operation. Please keep in mind the inside mechanisms will reach those high temps before it is fel in the hand sometimes. An M camera is a bunch of metal as opposed to plastics and will retain a lot of heat for longer periods. I’ve found that out over time as well. I think that’s why they are steering clear of a lot of things.

[Herr Barnack]

14 minutes ago, jdlaing said:

Try a 16 or 32 gig card. The Extreme Pro cards are very good but the Leica image engine only writes to a given speed and the extra speed is wasted on some of the high speed cards. Leica never was a run and gun camera and many here on the forum have found out over the years. If you go past the limits on the buffer, even for a couple or three shots i would expect it to protest.

After having problems with Lexar cards, I have settled on the SanDisk 64GB Extreme PRO UHS-I SDXC Memory Card for all of my digital Leicas.  These cards perform 100% and 170 MB/sec is adequate in terms of read/write speed.  At $20 USD each, they are very affordable compared to the hyper speed, mega storage capacity alternatives:  https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1431033-REG/sandisk_sdsdxxy_064g_gn4in_extremepro_sdxc_64gb_card.html

Regarding possible battery issues, it would be a good idea to try using a different battery to see if that helps.  If you have a Leica dealer within a reasonable distance, you could go there and ask them to let you try using one of the batteries from a display model M10 to see if that helps.

Edited October 2, 2020 by Herr Barnack

[jdlaing]

Just now, Herr Barnack said:

After having problems with Lexar cards, I have settled on the SanDisk 64GB Extreme PRO UHS-I SDXC Memory Card for all of my digital Leicas.  These cards perform 100% and 170 MB/sec is adequate in terms of read/write speed.  At $20 USD each, they are very affordable compared to the hyper speed, mega storage capacity alternatives:  https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1431033-REG/sandisk_sdsdxxy_064g_gn4in_extremepro_sdxc_64gb_card.html

I’m still using the high end Lexar cards and have no trouble.

[vwillrocku]

7 minutes ago, jdlaing said:

Look at the user manual and read the temperature high and low limits for operation. Please keep in mind the inside mechanisms will reach those high temps before it is fel in the hand sometimes. An M camera is a bunch of metal as opposed to plastics and will retain a lot of heat for longer periods. I’ve found that out over time as well. I think that’s why they are steering clear of a lot of things.

I have read the manual. When the air temperature is 30 degree and shot for 10 mins only, the LV button always starts to jam. I think the environment is far from extreme. If a camera cannot survive in this environment, then the company should not make any more camera. Moreover, the other two buttons works perfectly in the same situation. Even though the camera is in normal room temp with air conditioning, the touching of LV button is still different. It shows there is something wrong with it. 

Edited October 2, 2020 by vwillrocku

[vwillrocku]

14 minutes ago, Herr Barnack said:

After having problems with Lexar cards, I have settled on the SanDisk 64GB Extreme PRO UHS-I SDXC Memory Card for all of my digital Leicas.  These cards perform 100% and 170 MB/sec is adequate in terms of read/write speed.  At $20 USD each, they are very affordable compared to the hyper speed, mega storage capacity alternatives:  https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1431033-REG/sandisk_sdsdxxy_064g_gn4in_extremepro_sdxc_64gb_card.html

Regarding possible battery issues, it would be a good idea to try using a different battery to see if that helps.  If you have a Leica dealer within a reasonable distance, you could go there and ask them to let you try using one of the batteries from a display model M10 to see if that helps.

I have a friend with an M10 and I will ask him for the battery test. Thanks! But my battery is quite new and only make less than 10,000 pictures, it would be surprise for it to fail. 

Edited October 2, 2020 by vwillrocku

[Peter Kilmister]

7 minutes ago, vwillrocku said:

I have read the manual. When the air temperature is 30 degree and shot for 10 mins only, the LV button always starts to jam. I think the environment is far from extreme. If a camera cannot survive in this environment, then the company should not make any more camera. Moreover, the other two buttons works perfectly in the same situation. Even though the camera is in normal room temp with air conditioning, the touching of LV button is still different. It shows there is something wrong with it. 

When mentioning temperatures it is a good idea to say which scale you are using. Most of the world uses Celsius in which 30 degrees is rather warm. USA uses Fahrenheit in which 30 degrees is below the freezing point of water. 

[vwillrocku]

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2 minutes ago, Peter Kilmister said:

When mentioning temperatures it is a good idea to say which scale you are using. Most of the world uses Celsius in which 30 degrees is rather warm. USA uses Fahrenheit in which 30 degrees is below the freezing point of water. 

Yes, it is degree Celsius which I mentioned in the first post>>>Moreover, the LV button would stuck when the camera and the shooting environment was hot (over 30 degree celsius),.

Edited October 2, 2020 by vwillrocku

[vwillrocku]

39 minutes ago, tom.w.bn said:

At first a possible battery problem should be excluded. You can send it 10 times to Wetzlar without a fix when your battery is the problem.

One more thought: Why don't Leica customer care ask me to try another battery or SD? I think if they have some case difficult to resolve, they can contact the customers and try to debug together, like the members in this forum.

Anyway, I will tell you all about the SD and battery testing results. 

Edited October 2, 2020 by vwillrocku

[michali]

5 hours ago, vwillrocku said:

.......... It is a good advice to find a manager, do anyone here have a email contact? I am not living in Germany, Europe or US, so direct calling may be not possible.
 

If all else fails, I've sent you a private message with the contact details of a senior person at Leica Germany who should be able to assist in sorting out your problem.

Edited October 2, 2020 by michali

[tom0511]

I would strongly recommend to write to Leica Wetzar and complain and tell them your dissappointment. Maybe I would even write to Mr. Kaufmann if you are so much dissappointed.

Leica products can be so much joy to use so its das if you give up cause by some bad service

[martinot]

13 hours ago, harryzet said:

get rid of it and buy a fuji x-pro. you will never look back

I love my Fuji cameras (more so than my Nikon, Canons and Panasonic), BUT they are no true range finder cameras. So go a head and buy some great Fuji mirrorless cameras, but do not think it is a straight replacement for a rangefinder Leica M. It is not. I love my Leica M camera and optics, and would not trade them for any mirrorless systems. I would get/keep both.

Very different tools with different use cases. 

[vwillrocku]

Thank you everyone to provide insights and recommendations to me, especially thanks to Michali and Peter for your private message and tips.

I tested with another SD card (format in camera before use, which is a slower speed Sandisk Ultra 32GB) for an hour of indoor shooting. The temperature was not high (about 27 degree C). After accumulating about 60 photos with about 80% of battery remain, the same shut down problem reoccur for one time. So my first assumption is the problem should not be card or temperature related. I will try to use another battery for a test later. 

If I experience the same issue, I will try to contact different people from Leica advised by the forum users.  

Edited October 3, 2020 by vwillrocku

[Matlock]

3 hours ago, vwillrocku said:

Thank you everyone to provide insights and recommendations to me, especially thanks to Michali and Peter for your private message and tips.

I tested with another SD card (format in camera before use, which is a slower speed Sandisk Ultra 32GB) for an hour of indoor shooting. The temperature was not high (about 27 degree C). After accumulating about 60 photos with about 80% of battery remain, the same shut down problem reoccur for one time. So my first assumption is the problem should not be card or temperature related. I will try to use another battery for a test later. 

If I experience the same issue, I will try to contact different people from Leica advised by the forum users.  

Be sure to keep us updated on your progress.

[vwillrocku]

Dear all

I borrowed my friend's battery for a one day shooting. After around 300 photos the camera shut down suddenly with about 50% of battery remain. It seems the shut down problem is not battery related. 

It needs patience and a little more time to notice the problem as I said before, the issue occurs randomly. Sometimes at the beginning of the shooting session with the battery almost full, but sometimes it only occurs after 50 photos or 200 photos. But in general, every full day shooting (with 300+ photos) it repeats at least one or even 3 to 4 times. So I think this might be the reason why Leica technician was unable to find the problem.   

Edited October 11, 2020 by vwillrocku

[oka]

On 10/11/2020 at 12:44 PM, vwillrocku said:

Dear all

I borrowed my friend's battery for a one day shooting. After around 300 photos the camera shut down suddenly with about 50% of battery remain. It seems the shut down problem is not battery related. 

It needs patience and a little more time to notice the problem as I said before, the issue occurs randomly. Sometimes at the beginning of the shooting session with the battery almost full, but sometimes it only occurs after 50 photos or 200 photos. But in general, every full day shooting (with 300+ photos) it repeats at least one or even 3 to 4 times. So I think this might be the reason why Leica technician was unable to find the problem.   

...from the responses I have got from the support, I suspect that there are far too many devices sent to the factory which are just a user errors.

Your problem is clear, seems to be _again_ problems with the electronics... with the video I just can't understand how anyone can blame the buffer size. I have used M10 series cameras on weddings professionally with thousands of shots per event and if camera is not defective they work flawlessly.

[vwillrocku]

Before having an update to the situation, let me summarize the repairing history of my M10:

1st repair: Live view occasionally unable to engage. Fixed.

2nd repair: After the repairing, LV buttons sometimes got stuck and refused to rebound. Also camera would shut down when shooting rapidly.

3rd repair: The camera was sent to repair again as the 2nd repair fix nothing. Then I started this message thread to ask for help. Leica asked me to send the camera to them for the 3rd time.

----------------

Then here is the situation afterwards:

After the 3rd repair and the camera came back to me, before I had time to give it a full test, I immediately noticed something not alright: the base ISO became 100 rather than 200. When pointing a fast lens to bright scene with Auto ISO mode, ISO dropped to 100. Resetting the camera didn't work, reinstalling the firmware also not possible as it was already the latest version. My wide guess was some engineers messed up the software during repairing. 

Contacted the customer service, they just asked me to send the camera to them again, yes, for the 4th time within the year 2020. I was not sure if there will be 5th or 6th time waiting for me and it might not impossible from my experience.

I didn't want to visit DHL anymore. So I wrote more emails to complaint, Leica finally agreed to have a new M10 replacement for me. Unfortunately the damage has been done, I will give the new camera to someone. I have no faith about a brand with a product needs AT LEAST 4 attempts to be fixed and the customer department could not be described as very helpful. So no more Leica in my life, as the topic said.

But I found there are some very helpful users in this forum willing to help, which makes me think my case is not that bad. Thank you everyone who gave me advice. 

 

 

    

Edited February 1, 2021 by vwillrocku

[Cobram]

4 hours ago, vwillrocku said:

Before having an update to the situation, let me summarize the repairing history of my M10:

1st repair: Live view occasionally unable to engage. Fixed.

2nd repair: After the repairing, LV buttons sometimes got stuck and refused to rebound. Also camera would shut down when shooting rapidly.

3rd repair: The camera was sent to repair again as the 2nd repair fix nothing. Then I started this message thread to ask for help. Leica asked me to send the camera to them for the 3rd time.

----------------

Then here is the situation afterwards:

After the 3rd repair and the camera came back to me, before I had time to give it a full test, I immediately noticed something not alright: the base ISO became 100 rather than 200. When pointing a fast lens to bright scene with Auto ISO mode, ISO dropped to 100. Resetting the camera didn't work, reinstalling the firmware also not possible as it was already the latest version. My wide guess was some engineers messed up the software during repairing. 

Contacted the customer service, they just asked me to send the camera to them again, yes, for the 4th time within the year 2020. I was not sure if there will be 5th or 6th time waiting for me and it might not impossible from my experience.

I didn't want to visit DHL anymore. So I wrote more emails to complaint, Leica finally agreed to have a new M10 replacement for me. Unfortunately the damage has been done, I will give the new camera to someone. I have no faith about a brand with a product needs AT LEAST 4 attempts to be fixed and the customer department could not be described as very helpful. So no more Leica in my life, as the topic said.

But I found there are some very helpful users in this forum willing to help, which makes me think my case is not that bad. Thank you everyone who gave me advice. 

 

 

    

Indeed many LUF users are very helpful and share willingly their knowledge and experience with us - Leica newbies.☺️ Maybe sometimes they are too passionate in love towards Leica and somehow won't accept many very bad personal experiences of other users and react too harsh ☺️. I had similar experience with Leica Q... complained about distorsion, iPhone like "artificial" sharpness (just my humble personal observation) and very strange skin tones impossible to correct (in Capture One). Adding bad experience with customer/service center I can understand how you feel.

I just want to encourage you to not sell Leica lenses. They exhibit best rendering in the world :-) and are very good regarding sharpness vs size. You can use Leica lenses on other cameras with good success and when Leica or any other manufacturer produce more reliable camera (at least by your standard) you can come back to rangefinder photography. 

Good luck.

[pedaes]

5 hours ago, vwillrocku said:

I will give the new camera to someone

Lucky lucky someone! Their new camera will perform faultlessly!

Better luck with whatever you get next, enjoy and have fun with your photography😀!.

[jaapv]

6 hours ago, vwillrocku said:

I will give the new camera to someone.

Yes, please.  

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[fisheess]

7 hours ago, vwillrocku said:

Before having an update to the situation, let me summarize the repairing history of my M10:

1st repair: Live view occasionally unable to engage. Fixed.

2nd repair: After the repairing, LV buttons sometimes got stuck and refused to rebound. Also camera would shut down when shooting rapidly.

3rd repair: The camera was sent to repair again as the 2nd repair fix nothing. Then I started this message thread to ask for help. Leica asked me to send the camera to them for the 3rd time.

----------------

Then here is the situation afterwards:

After the 3rd repair and the camera came back to me, before I had time to give it a full test, I immediately noticed something not alright: the base ISO became 100 rather than 200. When pointing a fast lens to bright scene with Auto ISO mode, ISO dropped to 100. Resetting the camera didn't work, reinstalling the firmware also not possible as it was already the latest version. My wide guess was some engineers messed up the software during repairing. 

Contacted the customer service, they just asked me to send the camera to them again, yes, for the 4th time within the year 2020. I was not sure if there will be 5th or 6th time waiting for me and it might not impossible from my experience.

I didn't want to visit DHL anymore. So I wrote more emails to complaint, Leica finally agreed to have a new M10 replacement for me. Unfortunately the damage has been done, I will give the new camera to someone. I have no faith about a brand with a product needs AT LEAST 4 attempts to be fixed and the customer department could not be described as very helpful. So no more Leica in my life, as the topic said.

But I found there are some very helpful users in this forum willing to help, which makes me think my case is not that bad. Thank you everyone who gave me advice.

Sorry to hear about your bad experience with your M10. But from an engineering standing point I would say you had bad luck and got a faulty unit, or your camera had an early failure from a quality control point of view. 

If you give your replacement camera to someone regardless, then he will probably be very lucky. I hope you can have better experience and make excellent photos with whatever camera you decide to use.