Leica M macro : adapters or diopters

[pyracine]

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Hello,

I have a leica m10, a 50mm summarit (min focusing distance 0.8m), and soon a tele-elmarit 90mm.

I would like to be able to reproduce documents, mainly photos, at print sizes 10x15cm (4x6in), sometimes 5x7cm (2x3in) or 15x20cm (6x8in). My lenses don't allow such a close focusing distance. I have a nikkor 55mm with an adapter ring, the results are good but it adds a lens in the bag so I'd rather use my M lenses.

I hesitate between a macro adapter or diopters. The Leica Macro adapter is really expensive, I'd rather use an oufro but I don't know if one oufro ring would be enough to reproduce prints at thoses sizes. Or would I have to stack several oufros ? Also i cannot find cheap alternatives to oufro online.

Diopters seem really convenient as you don't need to unmount the lens, but I have never used them. Which brands and what magnification would you recommend for a good picture quality of for sizes from 5x7cm or 15x20cm ?

I think there are charts but I am kinf of lost with numbers..

Thank you for your help.

 

[spydrxx]

When considering diopters in general, think of the view you get with a handheld magnifying glass - sharp central image, much less so near the edges...that's why I gave up on them many years ago. You already have a good user in the Nikon lens...no need to spend more money, IMHO.

[TomB_tx]

I'd suggest first trying some copies with the TeleElmarit at its normal close focus distance, cropping the image to fit the photo/document. Depending on your use of the copied image you may be surprised. I often do this instead of fitting my 60mm Elmarit-R macro to an adapter to get an uncropped result. M10 images hold up to cropping quite well.

[Jean-Michel]

There is more to duplicating documents with a camera then just the lens. And in many cases, especially with small documents, scanning the documents or prints is both easier and more precise (aligning the sensor plane with the document plane is not a trivial matter). A good quality flatbed scanner, such as the Epson V850, will save you much aggravation and produce excellent results. I am also considering getting the Epson FastFoto 680 for dealing with a request for a large number of small prints to be scanned and made into book, just a mater of making that part of the project quicker. 

[pyracine]

Thank you all.

3 hours ago, spydrxx said:

When considering diopters in general, think of the view you get with a handheld magnifying glass - sharp central image, much less so near the edges...that's why I gave up on them many years ago. You already have a good user in the Nikon lens...no need to spend more money, IMHO.

Yes the Nikon glass is good but it is one more glass to add to the bag and to carry around. The scanner even more so..

I have read about acromat diopters such as Arumi, which are said to be much better than regular diopters. Any thought ?

 

3 hours ago, TomB_tx said:

I'd suggest first trying some copies with the TeleElmarit at its normal close focus distance, cropping the image to fit the photo/document. Depending on your use of the copied image you may be surprised. I often do this instead of fitting my 60mm Elmarit-R macro to an adapter to get an uncropped result. M10 images hold up to cropping quite well.

Yes I will try this, but the picture would be really really small in the frame so the file would need a huge crop, and I need quality reproductions, sometimes to print big.

 

3 hours ago, Jean-Michel said:

There is more to duplicating documents with a camera then just the lens. And in many cases, especially with small documents, scanning the documents or prints is both easier and more precise (aligning the sensor plane with the document plane is not a trivial matter). A good quality flatbed scanner, such as the Epson V850, will save you much aggravation and produce excellent results. I am also considering getting the Epson FastFoto 680 for dealing with a request for a large number of small prints to be scanned and made into book, just a mater of making that part of the project quicker. 

I need to do scan when traveling, so I cannot take a scanner with me..

 

Anybody knows how a regular 50mm or 90mm behaves with an oufro ?

[spydrxx]

I've used a 90 Elmar and Elmarit heads with a Visoflex, and they work fine, a little clumsy compared to a slr, but good results. The OUFRO of course is merely an extension tube, and the Tele-elmarit wasn't optimized for close work...but you could probably get acceptable results. All said and done, you're probably better off with a lens actually designed for the use you've suggested. You don't say what camera you're using - if you have EVF focusing as an option, the extension tube works, if only RF focusing, it is a bit iffy unless you have a setup like the BEOON. But that is more to carry around, which brings me back to your original complaint about carrying the Nikon.

[Jean-Michel]

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For simple documentation of the small documents or prints that the OP mentioned, using one's smartphone may well be the easiest and most effective tool.

[250swb]

First thing is you aren't going to be able to reproduce anything 'macro' accurately or without shake without a copy stand or tripod. So research good manual macro lenses, such as a Nikon 60mm or 55mm, buy a cheap M>Nikon adapter (it is only a spacer so doesn't require extreme space age engineering), get a copy stand, some decent light source, and use LV to focus. You don't need to bugger about with all the Leica BEOON phaff (an old English word), although it is true the performance of arranging all the specialised Leica components is for some a greater achievement than the result.

[a.noctilux]

I saw some examples here with 50/90 + OUFRO

Plus some numbers here

 

Depending on the subjects, I use Elpro or OUFRO with my lenses and M10+Visoflex 020.

3D objects can be fine with Summarit-M 50mm +OUFRO or Elpro,

but curved field may be difficult with them to reproduce flat documents.

Macro lenses are created ( mostly) for flat documents with less curved field.

[Narsuitus]

When I travel with a light photographic load, I carry +1, +2, +3, +5, and +10 close-up diopters just in case I need to do close-up work.

Nikon, Canon and B+W make high quality diopters.

Since stacking diopters (such as combining the +1 and +3) results in a greater loss of image quality, I tend to avoid stacking.

[a.noctilux]

I use Elpro ( 4 types of achromat Elpro link to Wiki ) from my Leica R days on my Ms with adapters not easy to find.

Type 3 mounted on 90mm is the best compromise for 3D objects:

extract from Wiki ...90mm R lens focus to 70cm ...90mm M lens focus to 1m.

Type 3 - 161 x 241 / 72 x 108 mm Object Field - 1.66 diopter M55 x 0.75

Edited September 30, 2020 by a.noctilux

[pyracine]

15 minutes ago, a.noctilux said:

3D objects can be fine with Summarit-M 50mm +OUFRO or Elpro,

 

but curved field may be difficult with them to reproduce flat documents.

Macro lenses are created ( mostly) for flat documents with less curved field.

Ok so I may give this a try with the 50mm summarit. The macro elmar 90mm is expensive and the only macro lens that is RF coupled and thus can also be used as a regular lens.

 

 

30 minutes ago, Narsuitus said:

When I travel with a light photographic load, I carry +1, +2, +3, +5, and +10 close-up diopters just in case I need to do close-up work.

Nikon, Canon and B+W make high quality diopters.

Since stacking diopters (such as combining the +1 and +3) results in a greater loss of image quality, I tend to avoid stacking.

Is it good enough ? Do you have sample pictures ? Have you tried acromat diopters ?

 

 

28 minutes ago, a.noctilux said:

I use Elpro ( 4 types of achromat Elpro link to Wiki ) from my Leica R days on my Ms with adapters not easy to find.

Is Elpro really better since adapters are hard to find ? How do they perform ?

 

Thanks !

[Narsuitus]

3 hours ago, pyracine said:

Is it good enough ? Do you have sample pictures ? Have you tried acromat diopters ?

If I remember correctly, one or two of my close-up lenses are achromatic diopters.

If I am traveling with a camera that has interchangeable lenses, I prefer to take a macro lens.

When I am traveling with only a compact digital camera with a fixed zoom lens, I will take diopters just in case I need to shoot close-ups.

The image quality produced by the diopter is no better than the lens on which it is attached.

Sorry, I do not have any samples of pictures taken with the diopter. However, here is a picture of my diopters (E, F, G, H, I) with my other close-up and macro photo equipment.

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Close-up and Macro Equipment by Narsuitus, on Flickr

[Guest]

5 hours ago, pyracine said:

Yes the Nikon glass is good but it is one more glass to add to the bag and to carry around. The scanner even more so..

I have read about acromat diopters such as Arumi, which are said to be much better than regular diopters. Any thought ?

I don't understand your first comment. You certainly will not make any repros while traveling. You will make them while you are at home. So the "another lens to carry" argument simply does not apply here. If your 55mm Nikkor is a Micro-Nikkor, you have the ideal lens for your purposes.

Achromats can deliver very high quality (higher than extension rings unless the lens was made for them). However, no single achromat will give you a working range from 15cmx20cm to 5cmx7cm. For example, with my Elmarit-M 90mm and the Olympus MCON-P02 achromat I obtain a magnification range from 1:2.75 to 1:2 (corresponding to 6.6cmx9.9cm to 4.8cmx7.2cm), much less than you need.

[pyracine]

15 hours ago, Narsuitus said:

If I remember correctly, one or two of my close-up lenses are achromatic diopters.

If I am traveling with a camera that has interchangeable lenses, I prefer to take a macro lens.

When I am traveling with only a compact digital camera with a fixed zoom lens, I will take diopters just in case I need to shoot close-ups.

The image quality produced by the diopter is no better than the lens on which it is attached.

Sorry, I do not have any samples of pictures taken with the diopter. However, here is a picture of my diopters (E, F, G, H, I) with my other close-up and macro photo equipment.

 

Close-up and Macro Equipment by Narsuitus, on Flickr

 

14 hours ago, Joachim_I said:

Achromats can deliver very high quality (higher than extension rings unless the lens was made for them). However, no single achromat will give you a working range from 15cmx20cm to 5cmx7cm. For example, with my Elmarit-M 90mm and the Olympus MCON-P02 achromat I obtain a magnification range from 1:2.75 to 1:2 (corresponding to 6.6cmx9.9cm to 4.8cmx7.2cm), much less than you need.

Thank you. I am afraid diopters would be unconvenient to use..  do you carry 4 of them and change them according to the subject ? What brand would you recommend ?

 

14 hours ago, Joachim_I said:

I don't understand your first comment. You certainly will not make any repros while traveling. You will make them while you are at home. So the "another lens to carry" argument simply does not apply here. If your 55mm Nikkor is a Micro-Nikkor, you have the ideal lens for your purposes.

Oh yes I certainly will make repros while traveling.

[luigi bertolotti]

Not a Leica product... but the Novflex LEM VIS  (https://www.novoflex.de/en/products-637/lens-adapters/extension-tube-set-leica-m.html ) is of good quality, not complex to carry with you and with 50+90 offers many combinations of repro sizes: I think  cost is around 1/3 of the Leica Macro adapter (which of course is intrinsically more flexible)

(Just a user... not a Novoflex salesman...  😁 ... anyway, not too different than having 2 or 3 OUFROs to stack if needed)

 

Edited October 1, 2020 by luigi bertolotti

[Guest]

7 hours ago, pyracine said:

do you carry 4 of them and change them according to the subject ?

What brand would you recommend ?

I only carry one with me, the Olympus MCON-P02. It gives me a useful magnification range and it is the only one I could find for 46mm filter thread lenses. For larger magnifications, I use a bellows unit. In analog times, Leica, Canon and Nikon were mostly known for producing excellent achromatic close-up lenses. Not sure, how much of these offerings are still available. Leica has the Elpro 52, which is too strong for your purposes (too low focal length, too high diopters). Pentax had some diopters with large focal length. I use a T132 with 1320mm focal length to shoot close-up portraits with my Pentax 67 2.8/165mm lens. Today, Marumi seems to be the biggest supplier of achromats. I never used them but I read many favorable reviews.

By the way, the math is pretty easy. If X is the focal length of your lens, and Y the focal length of your achromat (focal length = 1000/diopters), then C = 1000/(1000/X+1000/Y) gives you the effective focal length of the combination of lens and achromat. Magnification at infinity focus position is then 1:C/(A-C). If you know the magnification 1:D of your lens at close focus distance (Leica always publishes these, e.g. if the lens achieves 1:8, then D = 8), then magnification at close focus distance is simply 1:C/(A/D+A-C). You can now can calculate yourself what kind of diopters you need. These formulas only work exactly for symmetrical lenses. Otherwise, they can be used as a rough guideline.

Edited October 2, 2020 by Guest
typo

[tommonego@gmail.com]

I have a cute little Kilar 40mm macro, I have a Canon FD mount and adapters are available, small light will focus to 1:2 magnification. I use it mostly with my CL but it would be adaptable to an M. The come in mostly 42mm screw mount, Exakta, and Canon FD mounts. I also have Nikon 55 and 105 micro lenses which are both excellent for photographing documentation. 

Now a question, I am looking at a 65 Elmar macro for Visoflex, is there a Leica adapter to bypass the Visoflex, if I use this on my CL? I have a Viso to use it on my M3. I use my 400 Telyt with just the Viso head with the CL, but a tube would be better. With a screw mt 200 Telyt I have I use TZOON tube to the CL M adapter. Just looking for a comparible Viso II or III bypass tube. Should I just get the Novoflex tubes described earlier?

[Narsuitus]

On 10/1/2020 at 11:06 AM, pyracine said:

...  do you carry 4 of them and change them according to the subject ?

Each diopter lens had a different magnification. The #1 diopter has the least magnification and the #10 diopter had the greatest magnification. One disadvantage of using diopters is that it is difficult to select the correct diopter strength for the desired image magnification.

If I were traveling with only a 50mm lens on a 35mm camera and wanted to use supplemental diopters to copy photos of various sizes, I would carry my 1, 3, 5, and 10 diopters.

With just my 50mm lens, at its closest focus, I could get about 22 inches (subject to film plane) from the subject to fill the frame with a subject that was about 11 1/2 inches long.

With the #1 diopter attached to the 50mm lens, I could get about 18 inches (subject to film plane) from the subject to fill the frame with a subject that was about 9 inches long.

With the #3 diopter attached to the 50mm lens, I could get about 11 1/2 inches (subject to film plane) from the subject to fill the frame with a subject that was about 5 inches long.

With the #5 diopter attached to the 50mm lens, I could get about 9 inches (subject to film plane) from the subject to fill the frame with a subject that was about 3 1/2 inches long.

With the #10 diopter attached to the 50mm lens, I could get about 6 inches (subject to film plane) from the subject to fill the frame with a subject that was about 1 3/4 inches long.

 

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[pyracine]

Thank you all for your help and thanks Narsuitus for your detailed answer !

I am going to use the 55mm nikkor with cheap AI-LM adapter from ebay and liveview + tripod, as it seems to be the most simple and flexible solution. And maybe try the macro-elmar some day if I feel like I need to travel lighter and carry just one 90mm lens.