90mm Summicron-M (e55) persistent backfocus

[jdlaing]

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What are the results if shot with live view?

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[mgermana]

11 minutes ago, jdlaing said:

What are the results if shot with live view?

When shot with Live View, the 90 focuses correctly and is no less sharp than the 50. But when using the rangefinder, the 90 gets further out of focus as distance to subject increases. That's not the case with the 50. The comparison of the two shots at 25ft. is pretty striking: the rangefinder patch is the same size in the viewfinder, and it should therefore be just as easy to achieve focus with the 90 as with the 50. However, whereas the 50 is acceptably close to being in focus, the 90 is back-focussed by several feet.

Edited September 27, 2020 by mgermana

[mgermana]

Here are uncropped versions of the 25ft shots. First with the 50: 

[Note: the lower resolution required for upload-able jpegs limits the usefulness of this image, I'm afraid. In Lightroom at 300%, I can almost read the fine print beneath the target, which is printed 50% gray. Not bad for f/1.4 in the sun.]

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Edited September 27, 2020 by mgermana

[mgermana]

...then with the 90: 

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[jdlaing]

47 minutes ago, mgermana said:

When shot with Live View, the 90 focuses correctly and is no less sharp than the 50. But when using the rangefinder, the 90 gets further out of focus as distance to subject increases. That's not the case with the 50. The comparison of the two shots at 25ft. is pretty striking: the rangefinder patch is the same size in the viewfinder, and it should therefore be just as easy to achieve focus with the 90 as with the 50. However, whereas the 50 is acceptably close to being in focus, the 90 is back-focussed by several feet.

There’s your answer.  The rangefinder, or lens, is a little off with that lens.

I think, at infinity, you’ll never get the same results wide open with those two lenses. It seems when using the 90 live view would be the choice.

[fotomas]

Just had my APO-Summicron 90 calibrated at Leica in Wetzlar. It was also off with the OVF (but not as much as yours). Now it is close to perfect. Could be a hint to close, but you could handle this by always focussing toward the farther side. Isn`t easy to focus this lens well at all anyway;-)

In your case I would return it and ask this to be corrected. It`s annoying but worth the effort. I had to wait two months to get my stuff back.
I had a camera repair done a while ago (not Leica) and it also came back with the same issue. But they fixed it successfully after my complaint.

 

Now the lens is a fun to use. Example made with the OVF. Focus on the bumblebee.

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And here a 100% crop from the above

M 246, APO-Summicron 90 mm, fully open or maybe at f 2,8, 1/4000 sec.

[mdg1371]

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I had essentially the same issue with my e55 last pre-Asph 90mm summicron. Sent it off to DAG once for calibration, came back still back focusing. Gave up and just use the EVF.

[mgermana]

12 hours ago, mdg1371 said:

I had essentially the same issue with my e55 last pre-Asph 90mm summicron. Sent it off to DAG once for calibration, came back still back focusing. Gave up and just use the EVF.

Not what I wanted to hear! I didn’t move to the Leica M system to *not* use the rangefinder. 

DAG saw my test results and asked me to send the lens back to him for readjustment. Keep your fingers crossed for me!

[adan]

The late rock & roll photographer (and Leica user) Jim Marshall famously said that once he found a Leica lens that focused perfectly on a given Leica camera - he never took it off that camera again. (He tended to carry 4-5 cameras at once ).

https://www.morrisonhotelgallery.com/photographs/ne0FcX/Jim-Marshall-by-Henry-Diltz

The point being that, while Leica (and DAG, no doubt) have tight tolerances, they are not infinitely tight. There will always be variation within the limits. And it is possible to get a lens within one edge of the limits, that works with one camera but is out of tolerance on another body (even though all are within specs).

And a 90mm at f/2.0 is really pushing up against the limits of the M rangefinder (and human vision) - and a lens built in the film-only era (with relatively thick, slightly-curved Jello™ (silver gelatin) as the expected imaging surface) did not have to meet the same standards for use on a flat sensor.

Anyway - best of luck!

[mgermana]

17 hours ago, adan said:

The late rock & roll photographer (and Leica user) Jim Marshall famously said that once he found a Leica lens that focused perfectly on a given Leica camera - he never took it off that camera again. (He tended to carry 4-5 cameras at once ).

https://www.morrisonhotelgallery.com/photographs/ne0FcX/Jim-Marshall-by-Henry-Diltz

The point being that, while Leica (and DAG, no doubt) have tight tolerances, they are not infinitely tight. There will always be variation within the limits. And it is possible to get a lens within one edge of the limits, that works with one camera but is out of tolerance on another body (even though all are within specs).

And a 90mm at f/2.0 is really pushing up against the limits of the M rangefinder (and human vision) - and a lens built in the film-only era (with relatively thick, slightly-curved Jello™ (silver gelatin) as the expected imaging surface) did not have to meet the same standards for use on a flat sensor.

Anyway - best of luck!

So, what you’re saying is it might be time to upgrade my M240? 😉

[lct]

Got the same kind of focusing problems with 90/2 v3 and 90/2.8 v2 lenses. Both have been fixed together with 6-bit coding by Leica. Now nailing focus at full aperture with difficult lenses like 90/2, 75/1.4 or 135/3.4 lenses (no experience with 90/1.5 or 75/1.25) is hardly possible with a rangefinder w/o focus bracketing or a bit (lot) of luck depending upon the cameras. With its slightly longer effective base length, the M10 should do better than the M240 in this respect. None of them can compete with an EVF as far as focusing is concerned though. I mean with sharp lenses as softer ones are easier to focus for obvious reasons. 

[jaeger]

I repeat, you need to do minimal, mid and infinity test to all 3 lenses.  You'll need to borrow a good lens from a friend for the 4th test after this.  I would do 1 more for a vintage Leica lens as 5th test because vintages are usually very accurate. 

If you care to know, the rate of change in rangefinder is a curve to infinity, it is not a linear nor straight line representing in X & Y axis.  What I am trying to say is any given point in focus doesn't mean you'll get all ranges are in focus.  The curve is making it more difficult to adjust and correct.  I know exactly where to change the curve in the body, it will drive you crazy if you wanna do it yourself tho.  I'm not saying DIY fix, I'm helping you to identify which lens is good or a bad body.

P.S. mid point at 15 feet is enough, the DOF is too forgiving if it's far.  If you want more precise, do 7 and 15 feet, 4 points are very nice.  So it's 0.7m, 2.5m, 5m & inf, plot them into a graph paper.

 

 

[mgermana]

3 hours ago, jaeger said:

I repeat, you need to do minimal, mid and infinity test to all 3 lenses.  You'll need to borrow a good lens from a friend for the 4th test after this.  I would do 1 more for a vintage Leica lens as 5th test because vintages are usually very accurate. 

If you care to know, the rate of change in rangefinder is a curve to infinity, it is not a linear nor straight line representing in X & Y axis.  What I am trying to say is any given point in focus doesn't mean you'll get all ranges are in focus.  The curve is making it more difficult to adjust and correct.  I know exactly where to change the curve in the body, it will drive you crazy if you wanna do it yourself tho.  I'm not saying DIY fix, I'm helping you to identify which lens is good or a bad body.

P.S. mid point at 15 feet is enough, the DOF is too forgiving if it's far.  If you want more precise, do 7 and 15 feet, 4 points are very nice.  So it's 0.7m, 2.5m, 5m & inf, plot them into a graph paper.

 

 

If I'm still having significant difficulties focusing after I get the lens back from DAG, I'll do some more tests. Until then, I'll just share what I already know: at just 5' the lens was back-focusing by 1.5"--enough to make taking portraits unworkable. And at 25' the amount of back-focus was almost 3 feet.

Ironically, I briefly rented a v.2 90mm Summicron, and it focused like a charm on my M240. So I'm aware of the limitations of the focal length for the rangefinder, and I can confidently say I had little difficulty working within these limitations. The amount of back-focus I'm getting with my v.3, however, exceeds my ability to compensate via focus bracketing. Maybe it would be different on another body, but this is the only one I've got (and the only one I can afford, to be honest).

Hopefully the readjustment will bring it into the proverbial ballpark. If it doesn't, I guess I'll bite the bullet and buy a used Oly VF2, which will cost a lot less than the insurance I'm paying to ship my Leica gear to Wisconsin and back every two weeks!

Edited September 29, 2020 by mgermana

[lct]

My calibrated v3 works fine on my M240 so i would not worry too much but my v2 did not need any calibration at all. Great lens indeed, better than v3 in all counts but size IMHO. 

[mgermana]

I had hoped to have my lens back by now so I could update this thread, but I’m afraid I’m still waiting. I presume DAG is overbooked as usual. 

[mdg1371]

I had the same experience with my 90mm Summicron pre-asph. Sent it to Don several times. All my other lenses, including 50mm and 75mm Nocts are in agreement, the 90 is not.

Finally gave up and use the Visoflex  or the SL2 for that lens, or in the alternative, use my 75 cron. 

 

Edited December 24, 2020 by mdg1371

[mgermana]

I'm reluctant to bring this up, but four months have passed since I sent this lens to DAG. I sent an email query to him a few weeks ago, but he did not answer it. Should I be concerned?

[tgray]

I sent another 90 (Macro) to DAG for focus adjustment in early September. Got an invoice from him early last week and got the lens on Saturday. I think he is just really backed up.  I emailed once or twice for an update and did not get a response either. 
 

Happy to say both my 90 Macro and Summicron E55 that DAG serviced recently are spot on now. 

Edited February 8, 2021 by tgray

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[mgermana]

43 minutes ago, tgray said:

I sent another 90 (Macro) to DAG for focus adjustment in early September. Got an invoice from him early last week and got the lens on Saturday. I think he is just really backed up.  I emailed once or twice for an update and did not get a response either. 
 

Happy to say both my 90 Macro and Summicron E55 that DAG serviced recently are spot on now. 

Thank you for this! I didn't want to be *that* guy who called him on the phone...

I'll sit tight for a while longer. 

[dkmoore]

1 hour ago, mgermana said:

Thank you for this! I didn't want to be *that* guy who called him on the phone...

I'll sit tight for a while longer. 

You 100% should call him. He gets tons of gear and if you don’t let him know when you want it back he likely won’t make it a priority. 
 

Any time I have called him he seems genuinely happy to talk to his customers and is very understanding.