Sensor Corrosion Analysis and Fix [Merged]

[Jrek]

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11 minutes ago, petard said:

I'm trying to source replacement glass for my M9 and there are various glasses available. There is one eBay seller offering BG40 at 0.9mm and various sellers on Aliexpress offering an unknown coated glass at 0.9mm as well. The latter seems to be Tangsinuo glass similar to BG39/BG40. From what I gathered Tangsinuo seems to be decent quality compared to the Schott.

Now what I'm confused about is the thickness. The thickness itself changes the spectral properties a little but more importantly my understanding is that if you put 0.9 or 1mm it can lead to focus issues.

I haven't come across a seller that offers 0.8mm, it needs to be custom ordered. So will using 0.9mm lead to issues if the sensor isn't adjusted?

I used Tangsinuo glass 0.9 and there were no issues with focusing.
I'm waiting for a glass for another camera.

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[TeleElmar135mm]

... the senor glas is one thing. But what is with the other components? What if the shutter becomes faulty or the electronics? Not so easy to decide ... and the Messsucher got improved in the M10 ...

[petard]

2 minutes ago, TeleElmar135mm said:

... the senor glas is one thing. But what is with the other components? What if the shutter becomes faulty or the electronics? Not so easy to decide ... and the Messsucher got improved in the M10 ...

That's why I do not want to spend the money on Kolari or MaxMax. Luckily there a cheaper options now.

[Casey Jefferson]

On 12/17/2024 at 4:44 PM, petard said:

Now what I'm confused about is the thickness. The thickness itself changes the spectral properties a little but more importantly my understanding is that if you put 0.9 or 1mm it can lead to focus issues.

I haven't come across a seller that offers 0.8mm, it needs to be custom ordered. So will using 0.9mm lead to issues if the sensor isn't adjusted?

Absolutely, it'll back focus cause it focus further with the slightly thicker glass, which is what happened to mine. I self adjusted the RF arm and focus was accurate throughout, but maybe no longer accurate to the distance scale for e.g. I usually focus slightly before the infinity mark for landscape, but now I focus slightly further away from infinity mark.

Since it's hand assembled, the focus plane also tilted slightly, that's somewhat visible in the images, but not enough to distract normal use.

The worst thing you'll expect is Leica will not touch 3rd party replaced sensor, if you developed good relationship with them you might be able to get them to do it without officially backed by the company, which I didn't opt for as it's expensive (close to $1k).

But if you ask if do I regret? Hell no, it's the most enjoyable camera I've used up to date, and we really don't have choices really didn't we?

PS: If kolari will be adjusting the sensor calibration and alignment, then the fee asked is well deserved and cheaper than sending off to china for about $400 (excl shipping) but spend more again to get the sensor aligned.

[petard]

Good point on the sensor and rangefinder alignment. I decided to sent the camera to China for repair and will inquire about it. There are so many shops offering the repair there, likely they are familiar with the issue as I saw it mentioned in one of the classifieds.

Kolari is about 1450 eur/ usd for replacement including alignment (excl shipping), still leaves 1000 bucks do the alignment locally if needed.

Edited December 20, 2024 by petard

[BLeventhal]

My camera is now in transit from Kolari. I opted for the less expensive glass because they indicated that it is guaranteed to be corrosion resistant for the life of the camera. The price of the glass and repair was just under $1000. I paid for expedited shipping and a "deep clean." I did not request the $200 rangefinder adjustment because the rangefinder was accurate with the lens I use... 35mm Color-Skopar. If I go for a newer lens, it will be the 35mm summarit and at a max aperture of f/2.4 my rangefinder will be accurate enough. 

Upon calling the office, they indicated that all of the corrosion spots are now gone and my ID4 sensor will remain corrosion free. Since I paid $1050 for a camera with about 3500 clicks on the shutter, I feel like I still have done well with the deal. With shipping and cleaning, my total cost from point of purchase through glass repair is about $2300. I paid $225 for my lens and now have a really nice street kit. 

My camera should arrive today or tomorrow... though it is being delivered by the USPS, so it will likely be late. I'll post my observations and a few pictures once it's back in my hands.

bruce

[petard]

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What is interesting about the BG39 glass that Kolari uses is that it's the same type as the original S8612 glass (delicate glass) and sensitive to corrosion. So they must be using some special coating to prevent corrosion. I wish there was an option to use the original glass with more modern coatings as suggested earlier in this thread but unfortunately Schott stopped producing it.

 

Edited December 20, 2024 by petard

[BLeventhal]

From Kolari:

"We also offer a cheaper BG39 glass with a protective anti-reflective and anti-smudge coating to seal it against corrosion. We offer this option with a lifetime guarantee against corrosion. We have this available right now at a lower price to the BG61. Color and optical performance is virtually identical to the BG61 glass, however this glass may corrode over time if the coatings get scratched or worn off."

I don't plan on changing lenses often or touching the sensor with anything but air. As such, I should be able to get some good years out of this camera. In addition, my Leica's are my "other" cameras, as I am mostly a nature shooter. Were I to suddenly fall in love with urban photography, I'd invest in an M10R or P, but for the amount I shoot with my M-bodies, I'm good with the digital ancients.

bruce

[BLeventhal]

Summary of the Kolari Adventure...

I received my camera back from Kolari today.

My saga is as follows... I ordered my Kolari repair online on 12/2 and paid for their insured shipping packaging service, expedited repair, deep clean, and BG39 sensor glass replacement. With a holiday discount, I spent just uner $1200 for this all. I chose to buy thier packaging service in an abundance of caution, as my camera was going to travel from California to New Jersey during the holiday season. I wanted to be fully insured for a loss and not be responsible for any damage. While the latter added $100 to my bill, I felt (and feel) that it was worth it.  

I received their pre-paid packaging on 12/9, packed up my camera and shipped it out on that day. Kolari received my package on 12/14, did the repair on 12/16 and shipped the package out on 12/17. Today is 12/21 (Happy Solstice to you all), and the camera was returned to me in the afternoon. It is an ugly day, but I did do a sensor-check shot and took some close focus pictures in which I focued on her nose. The sensor is clean... the 7 to 9 corrosions spots that were present on 12/2 are now all gone. I am using a camera with an ID4 sensor, and I still have that early generation sensor. I'm not sure what they do in a deep clean, but my camera looks good and the rangefinder is accurate. 

Bottom line, I am happy with the service Kolari provided and think that it was certainly with doing to my camera which has only 3500 clicks on the shutter. 

cheers,

bruce

[pedaes]

6 minutes ago, BLeventhal said:

Bottom line, I am happy

Good to read it went well and hope you have many trouble free years with a excellent camera.

[petard]

Great to hear everything went well! Do you notice any color cast or other change in the images?

[BLeventhal]

8 hours ago, petard said:

Great to hear everything went well! Do you notice any color cast or other change in the images?

At this point everything seems the same. 

I shot the camera yesterday afternoon and hope to do some more shooting later today. As far as I can tell, the sensor behaved as it did prior to shipping it to Kolari...

[RTP]

I am on the hunt for a clear sensored M9.

What I suspect I am finding, may have to lower my expections and perhaps someone could confirm.

I have come across CCD ID 5 copies on visual inspection of the sensor to be free of corrosion and sold that way.

However, test images at f16 show countless stain spots of what ever you want to call it.

The most recent copy is one with a Kolari service cover glass replacement and sold as "corrosion proofed".

Now, I have to admit at f4-8 all I find in images is a white pixel/dead or hot and therefore fairly usable.

I just wonder if my journey should stop here with this copy?

[petard]

IMHO current M9s are way overpriced given many of em dont have a replaced sensor. Essentially paper weights in the wait.

If you are shopping new then I think it’s best to search for one with ID15/16. Unless you get a really great deal, why bother with a 3rd party repaired sensor.

Edited January 1 by petard

[3D-Kraft.com]

If you are looking for the joyful M9 experience and can get the Kolari-serviced copy that shows no spots for a good price, I would not hesitate. On the long term, a copy with ID15/16 sensor may be the safer investment.

[BLeventhal]

I figure that if you can get 4 to 5 years of joy from an M9, then it is worth the $2000. If you're so concerned about the camera having corrosion in the future, buy an M240, they are within hundreds of each other.  

If your M9 sensor corrodes in 2030, you had a good five years of photography and will have nice camera to put on an office shelf. By 2030, the M11's will be as affordable as the M9s 🙃

bruce

[Bruck]

On 9/11/2020 at 5:47 PM, dllewellyn said:

I have been modifying cameras for over 25 years.  Among the many cameras I own are three M9's and an S2.  One of the M9's I bought had really bad sensor corrosion, and I decided to take it apart to see what was going on.  What I found was:

- The IR Cut Filter (ICF) also functions as sensor coverglass and is epoxied to the sensor itself making removal rather difficult.  The only sensors I have seen with the ICF epoxied on are some Kodak medium format backs.  Kodak made the sensors for the M9 (and then Kodak sold to Truesense and that got sold to On Semiconductor).

- The active sensor part isn't the problem.  The problem is the ICF.  It looked to me like the glass had oxidized (not quite the same as corroded).

- Certain sorts of filter glass are susceptible to oxidization.  Pretty much all the Schott BG and UG types.

- In every camera I have taken apart (I have taken apart thousands), I have never seen an oxidized ICF because they all have vapor deposition metallic coatings on them which seals the glass.  Oxidization is related to time, temperature, humidity, ozone and even the particular glass melt.

- Next I removed the coverglass (again, rather difficult to do without damaging the sensor) and measured the ICF with a spectrometer.  What I found was that Kodak used *uncoated* BG type glass for the ICF.  Somebody really screwed up somewhere.

- After, I decided to remove the Color Filter Array (CFA) and turn it into a monochrome sensor

- Lastly, I installed a new ICF coverglass

- On Semi exited the CCD business so there will be no more new M9 sensors made.  That's why Leica can't repair M9 cameras with sensor problems anymore.

Without trying to be self promoting, if someone needs their M9 sensor fixed and/or converted to monochrome, I know how.

 

not sure if you will see this @dllewellyn I'm attempting to repair an M9 that won't turn on.  Did you have any documentation of any kind before the first time you opened the M9? I'm just looking for any extra guidance to avoid silly mistakes.  Not sure what it may take to get this camera to turn back on (I purchased it broken)

Edited March 24 by Bruck

[dllewellyn]

Hi Bruck, 

I don't have any documentation, but I can offer some tips.  I am just going on memory without a camera in front of me, so I may miss something.

To get the top off which houses the switch:

- Remove metal bottom plate.  Take out battery and memory card.

- Remove screws that hold the plastic bottom cover.  Plastic cover pops out.

- Remove big left screw and loosen right big screw that hold down the top cover.  The right screw is accessed through a hold on the right side.  You have to feel for the screw with your screw driver.  Loosen the right screw, but you don't need to remove it.

- Carefully remove the top cover.  Disconnect the flex cable between the body and the top cover.  

- On/Off switch is part of the top cover assembly.

However, I would caution that if you are not familiar with working with cameras like this, you may not want to attempt.  You can damage the camera more than it already is.  

If camera is not turning on, it might not be the On/Off switch.  Are you sure the battery is charged?  Do you know the history of the camera?  Has the camera been worked on (touched) before?  If camera has been worked on, someone may have already damaged other parts in the camera.  If no power, it could be a bad motherboard, or problem other than the switch.  If switch is damaged, repairing it might be difficult.

 

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[petard]

@Bruck Here a video showing the disassembly 

 

[Tirpitz666]

Just bought an M-E with the sensor glass substuted by a third party lab that does it here in Italy since years with very good feedbacks, will keep you posted. Kolari is just too expensive and cumbersome for us Europeans due to customs.