Sensor Corrosion Analysis and Fix [Merged]

[dllewellyn]

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Kodak originally made the Leica M9 sensors, then after a 50% employee reduction, spun the sensor division off to some of the upper executives to a company called True Sense.  They held the company for a few years and then flipped the company to On Semi in 2014.  In 2019, On Semi announced that it was discontinuing ALL CCD products.  In June of 2020, On Semi closed down their CCD fab.  So the chance that On Semi will decide to reopen a CCD fab are non-existent.  Theoretically, some other fab that still makes CCD's could make the M9 sensor, but Leica wants to kill off the M9 cameras and get you to upgrade.  So nope, nada, ain't happening. 

[adan]

No.

The M9 CCD was a special one-off design that only Leica used.

There was one factory making them, and that CCD sensor production line was shut down in 2020.

Leica got the last batch for replacements, but they were all gone by late 2020.

Edited January 1, 2022 by adan

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[dllewellyn]

Well, for consumer cameras, almost every camera sensor is custom designed for that particular model.  Even with cameras that use the same imaging die, the PCB is different. For example, Fuji made lots of different 16MP cameras and almost every one of them had the actual sensor mounted on a different PCB.  I haven't figured that one out yet because one would think from a manufacturing cost standpoint it would cost less to use the same sensor mounted on the same PCB.  Consumer camera sensors are almost always 'special' to that particular model.  There are a few exceptions but few and far between.

[adan]

Well, up to a point. I recall that Sony had sealing problems with a 2/3rds" sensor - and that caused failures (from humidity intrusion) for at least a half-dozen different cameras from different brands. They all used that same sensor.

The Kodak KAF-18500 CCD for the M9 was never used by any other camera maker, even with bespoke modifications (partly because it was somewhat antiquated even in 2012 - the world was going CMOS). Even though Kodak tried to shop it around in their catalog.

And for consumer cameras, it was the last CCD being manufactured. No one was left to pick up the pieces, once ON Semi quit making them.

[dllewellyn]

Might be heresy, but CCD and CMOS are both silicon sensors.  Early CMOS had a bad rap because they sacrificed at lot of real estate to the processing circuitry (versus the photodiodes).  But look at a modern CMOS under a microscope.and pixels are pretty much edge to edge.  I can send you pictures if you want.  And with BSI, even more so.  CCD costs less to manufacture in small quantities.  CMOS cost more in small quantities but less as volumes increase. 

[adan]

I agree with every word you wrote in post #425 - no need to provide pictures.

[dllewellyn]

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CCD designs cost less but require more off-processing circuity.  CMOS can read each pixel versus rows or lines of CCD.  CMOS is lower power and can do things that CCD can't.  Not to say some CCD cameras can produce excellent pictures, but science is what it is.  But, heck, I have seen customers using terrible cameras taking pictures winning awards - and not small art shows.  At that point, I realized my point in life is an-above amateur photographer, but give a talented photographer with a roll of expired Kodak 120 with a disposable camera, and they will blow me away.  But at least I can make the cameras for them!

[JhonBosch]

I do not mean to ask an offensive question but I need to know if the M9 sensor repair is something that offers the same quality, with guarantees, thank you.

[dllewellyn]

This is what I can see from your post:

I do not mean to ask an offensive question but I need to know if the M9 sensor repair is something that offers

[Topsy]

24 minutes ago, dllewellyn said:

This is what I can see from your post:

I do not mean to ask an offensive question but I need to know if the M9 sensor repair is something that offers

There's a scroll bar under the text you can move the sentance along with it.

[dllewellyn]

This is what I can see from your post:

I do not mean to ask an offensive question but I need to know if the M9 sensor repair is something that offers - well not on my computer.

[a.noctilux]

4 hours ago, JhonBosch said:

I do not mean to ask an offensive question but I need to know if the M9 sensor repair is something that offers the same quality, with guarantees, thank you.

Which repair?

By which company ?

[jankap]

4 hours ago, JhonBosch said:

I do not mean to ask an offensive question but I need to know if the M9 sensor repair is something that offers the same quality, with guarantees, thank you.

In short, the same quality as what? 

Edited January 2, 2022 by jankap

[dllewellyn]

I can't speak for the factory fresh M9's having never had one, but I can say that my glass change will enable your camera to take great pictures again.  If you want to find a fault, you can find one with a brand new camera out of the box.  If you want to take great pictures, that is up to you and your skill.

[Marac]

My M9 is away having the sensor glass replaced (awaiting correct thickness glass to be made).

I will be very happy to get it back & do a report. Initially it was repaired using a glass that was slightly thicker and this caused issues with rangefinder focussing.

Looking forward to getting it back and taking photos with this classic gorgeous camera again. I also own a Mamiya ZD DSLR (medium format) that has a HUGE CCD sensor installed and is excellent as long as the ISO is 400 or below. Perfect for landscape.

 

Having the sensor glass replaced by someone who knows what they are doing is a great idea and also the fact that many M9's are still out there means there may be some spare parts around for a while because repairing them may become too expensive for such an old camera.

I'll keep mine going as long as I can, it is not my day to day camera (that is my CL) but it's sure good to take it out for a run every now and then.

[Monz]

On 1/2/2022 at 2:05 PM, Marac said:

My M9 is away having the sensor glass replaced (awaiting correct thickness glass to be made).

I will be very happy to get it back & do a report. Initially it was repaired using a glass that was slightly thicker and this caused issues with rangefinder focussing.

Looking forward to getting it back and taking photos with this classic gorgeous camera again. I also own a Mamiya ZD DSLR (medium format) that has a HUGE CCD sensor installed and is excellent as long as the ISO is 400 or below. Perfect for landscape.

 

Having the sensor glass replaced by someone who knows what they are doing is a great idea and also the fact that many M9's are still out there means there may be some spare parts around for a while because repairing them may become too expensive for such an old camera.

I'll keep mine going as long as I can, it is not my day to day camera (that is my CL) but it's sure good to take it out for a run every now and then.

Thanks for the update Marac. I'm looking forward to your report. If the back-focussing issue is sorted with the thinner glass, then it would be a great outcome. 

[Jrek]

On 1/2/2022 at 2:05 PM, Marac said:

My M9 is away having the sensor glass replaced (awaiting correct thickness glass to be made).

I will be very happy to get it back & do a report. Initially it was repaired using a glass that was slightly thicker and this caused issues with rangefinder focussing.

Looking forward to getting it back and taking photos with this classic gorgeous camera again. I also own a Mamiya ZD DSLR (medium format) that has a HUGE CCD sensor installed and is excellent as long as the ISO is 400 or below. Perfect for landscape.

 

Having the sensor glass replaced by someone who knows what they are doing is a great idea and also the fact that many M9's are still out there means there may be some spare parts around for a while because repairing them may become too expensive for such an old camera.

I'll keep mine going as long as I can, it is not my day to day camera (that is my CL) but it's sure good to take it out for a run every now and then.

Looking forward to hear your report on M9 with replaced sensor glass.

[Marac]

A little update, my M9 has the new glass fitted and should be with me next week. Excellent work as always from ACS, cheers Neil. perfectly sealed & matched to the original covering with regard to thickness.. Happy Days

 

 

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[analog-digital]

Hello Together

Is the Leica M-E (type 220) also affected by "sensor corrosion"? I think almost not, since the release date was 2017 ???). But you never know.

Oh yes, are the differences at all relevant between the two types?

Edited February 17, 2022 by analog-digital

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[dllewellyn]

I have repaired sensor corrosion on M9, M9P, M-E, Monocrom and S2 cameras.  My guess is around 100,000 cameras affected because when you take off the bottom cover, you can see a handwritten serial number on the chassis, and I have seen numbers as high as 86,000.