M10-P or M10R

[otto.f]

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On 6/19/2021 at 8:24 AM, Photoworks said:

 

I like the natural grain structure of the new sensor much more, and the colors seam spot on and much more natural.

 

I can agree with that. And this was the reason I decided this week for the M10-R. Quite a thing for such a loyal M9 user like me, but the colors convinced me. If they appear too saturated or not very well white-balaced in some situations they are much easier to get them neutral than the 24Mp M10's. After a bit of getting used to it, I'm very positive about the image character, beautiful noise indeed and a sharpness which comes across much less 'digital' than other recent Leica camera's.

[Likaleica]

Neil, is that you?

[Likaleica]

20 minutes ago, Steven said:

Who is Neil ? He sounds so lovely. 

Steven, I get a kick out of your posts. And they remind me of another enthusiastic forum member who no longer posts here. It was meant as a reference to him. But I couldn’t figure from your two posts if you print or not. In one you said you get good prints and in another you said printing was extinct. I was confused. 

[Peter Kilmister]

When I get a photo that my wife considers worth printing, I get an excellent firm in Scotland to print it for me. Loxley Colour is their name. Turnaround is very quick. Then Petersfield Framery does the biggest and most expensive part by doing the framing. Well worth it. Anyway, I have led this topic away from the question. I am sure the IQ of the R is amazing.

24MP is better IQ than the  best analogue film results. The M10-P provides 24MP. I said the same when our old 1950s 405 line B&W TV was replaced by a 625 line Colour TV in the mid 1960s. That has been surpassed at an amazing rate.

The M10-R is definitely the way ahead. Sadly my eyes can't appreciate anything better than the best slide film using finest quality 24 DIN. So I think I will stick at this point.

[otto.f]

8 hours ago, Likaleica said:

Steven, I get a kick out of your posts. And they remind me of another enthusiastic forum member who no longer posts here. It was meant as a reference to him. But I couldn’t figure from your two posts if you print or not. In one you said you get good prints and in another you said printing was extinct. I was confused. 

Like in quantum-mechanics, people can also hold a superposition over A and -A. Take me for instance, I repeatedly said here that I won’t ever sell my M9 and my MM1. And I did last week, swapped them for an M10-R. It’s a strange world we’re living in, consistency is overrated.

Edited July 5, 2021 by otto.f

[SrMi]

9 hours ago, Steven said:

I wish I printed, but I don't have the time or energy to learn.  I don't even have the space right now! I've tried a couple times but nothing serious. 

And while I enjoy owning nice prints by other photographers, I enjoy my photos more viewed on a compter screen than on paper. 

It is a pity that you do not print. You are missing the final step. But look who is talking, I have not been printing until a month ago :). 
I did not want to print for the same reasons: space for printer and time/energy to learn to print correctly. 
However, that has changed with the Epson ET-8550 printer and Epson Print Layout software. The process is now straightforward, and the output is beautiful. In addition, the printer does not take that much space.

Here is a detailed review: 

Epson ET 8550 printer review. Functionality, features and print quality of the 13" A3+ EcoTank model

[Dennis]

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7 minutes ago, Steven said:

Then what ? what do you do with the prints ?! 

You look at them 😮

[Jeff S]

6 minutes ago, Steven said:

Then what ? what do you do with the prints ?! 

Hang them (rotate if limited space and/or to keep fresh).

Gift them.

Place them in portfolio cases (organized in many possible ways… by project, by favorites, etc).

Store anywhere… leave them for family/legacy (heirs will shuffle through prints, not drives). 
 

Exhibit them locally.  
 

Sell them.

Etc.

Jeff

[SrMi]

46 minutes ago, Steven said:

I forgot to mention something important.... that you forgot to mention as well. 

Let's suppose I bought the printer, made the space and time to learn and print. 

Then what ? what do you do with the prints ?! 

Then comes the best thing: you enjoy them. 

I think that I enjoy photography most when I shoot for myself.

I do share some of my images online, but that is my secondary objective. 

[Jeff S]

4 hours ago, Steven said:

As previously said, I think I would feel to arrogant to do that. 

 

That sounds wonderful, but then you print small ?

I’d be more troubled by endlessly posting pictures online, which typically yield inferior (and unpredictable) results, and most of which wouldn’t be worthy of public sharing in the first place.

Also, online, one has no idea of picture size/scale.  I print my pictures at the size that I think works best for each, small-ish by today’s monster standards, but not uniformly so.  I custom mat to suit, if framed. Bigger isn’t necessarily better. Many people are surprised by the actual size of the Mona Lisa, and other famous works of art…. paintings or photographs…having only experienced them online or from books or posters (or perhaps on their phone).  Size, viewing distance and presentation matter. Portfolio binders/cases also come in many sizes and forms.
 

Jeff
 

 

Edited July 6, 2021 by Jeff S

[Guest Nowhereman]

Generally, I feel that anyone with a serious interest in photography could greatly benefit with a traditional B&W printing course such as the one I took years ago at the Maine Photographic Workshops, (whose name may have changed since then). That will give you a grounding in what is a good print and, generally, how to get there trough targeted gradation and selective burning and dodging. Of course not everyone has the time for a darkroom course, and it's also useful to look at the darkroom processing examples in this old book, if you can get a hold of it.

All this is applicable to printing digitally, in the sense of training you how to look at what are often flat SOOC images in order to visualize what you want to end up with — which, ideally, might be what you visualized when you pressed the shutter: this is the Anselm Adams approach, at which you can look at in his two volumes, The Negative and The Print, if you are interested. This will also carry across to printing in color, with the proviso that manipulations like burning and dodging are more limited in that excess in this will quickly throw colors out of whack.

I've done digital printing, first, with laser printers and, then, with inkjet printers going all the way up to a 44-inch Epson. Unless you print constantly, lots of problems with clogged nozzles and large cartridges of hugely expensive inks going out of date; other issues with gloss differential (somewhat less problems with the newest inks) and the possible need for waxing prints with products like Renaissance Wax to make them look better or to reduce gloss differential. Some people love all this, but my interest is in having the print if I need it rather devoting time and energy to this. (For example, it's a big effort to wax  twenty 150x100 cm prints for an exhibition.)

The other issue, identified above, is what to do with the wretched prints. The only ones I've kept are A3+ size and, I must say, I never look at them. I have some of my prints on my walls, but don't want to go into the bother of circulating them: I also prefer to have other art on the walls, paintings — so, I gradually, end up replacing my own photographic prints with other art, although I do keep two or three large prints on the walls. 

So, to me, it's not a badge of honor to print all, or most, or even a selection, of one's own images. I prefer to have custom prints made when I need them and also to make books. For the latter two purposes, I have no problem in judging images on my monitor — so, no, I don't regularly print my images.

@Steven, in Paris you have such good printers, as well as the excellent framer that I mentioned some time back, that I think there is no need for you to print, or frame, yourself — unless you were to be particularly attracted to doing this for a while.
________________________
Frog Leaping photobook

Edited July 6, 2021 by Nowhereman

[SrMi]

8 hours ago, Steven said:

I love your photos

Thank you, Steven!

[derleicaman]

I just started a new topic on the upgrade question, now that LR Super Resolution is available. Why upgrade to the R from the P with this in mind?

[Guest Nowhereman]

@Steven - Don't know what you mean about the M10-R's (superior) highlight recovery capability — what I mean is that it should be the same as that of the M10 considering that, according to the charts on https://photonstophotos.net, the two cameras essentially have the same dynamic range. The difference seems to be that, in the M10 firmware, Leica has applied a contrast curve that allocates more of the available dynamic range to shadows than it does to the highlights compare to the M10-R. This makes it seem to many people that the M10-R deals better with the highlights SOOC than the M10; and that also means that, with the M10-R, you need to underexpose less than you need to do on the M10 in order to protect highlights. I think why some feel that the M10-R is better in how it deals with highlights — but, I would think that only means SOOC, and that the ability to recover highlights, overall, should be the same in both cameras.

The other difference seems to be that you can do better at ISO 100 with the M10-R than with M10, which can be significant if you want to shoot fast lenses at full aperture.
________________________
Frog Leaping photobook

[Jeff S]

1 hour ago, Nowhereman said:

@Steven - Don't know what you mean about the M10-R's (superior) highlight recovery capability — what I mean is that it should be the same as that of the M10 considering that, according to the charts on https://photonstophotos.net, the two cameras essentially have the same dynamic range. The difference seems to be that, in the M10 firmware, Leica has applied a contrast curve that allocates more of the available dynamic range to shadows than it does to the highlights compare to the M10-R. This makes it seem to many people that the M10-R deals better with the highlights SOOC than the M10; and that also means that, with the M10-R, you need to underexpose less than you need to do on the M10 in order to protect highlights. I think why some feel that the M10-R is better in how it deals with highlights — but, I would think that only means SOOC, and that the ability to recover highlights, overall, should be the same in both cameras.

The other difference seems to be that you can do better at ISO 100 with the M10-R than with M10, which can be significant if you want to shoot fast lenses at full aperture.
________________________
Frog Leaping photobook

Jono and others expound on the issue in this thread…

And FWIW the sensor and sensor technology in the M10-R is completely different than in the M10… not just the resolution.  Stefan Daniels mentions dual gain architecture, 10% more light gathering area (non-electronics), refined pixel shape, and another distinction that I can’t quickly recall. 
 

Jeff

[Guest Nowhereman]

@Jeff S - Yes, the sensors are different but the dynamic range measures by photonstophotos have been a reflection of reality. That is why my question remains — and I have not seen the alleged superiority in the treatment of highlights by the M10-R  vs that of the M10 explained adequately.

Jono's statement that you linked deals only with the performance at ISO 100, which I mentioned and acknowledged in my earlier post.
________________________
Frog Leaping photobook 

Edited July 13, 2021 by Nowhereman

[pedaes]

21 minutes ago, Steven said:

with a summilux wide open, my photo is ever exposed

Try a '3 stop' ND Filter  https://schneiderkreuznach.com/en/photo-optics/b-w-filters/filtertypes/uv-clear/nd-800-series

[pedaes]

1 minute ago, Steven said:

I hate hoods, I hate straps, I hate caps, I hate filters. 
sorry I shouldn’t say hate. I just really dislike all of the above. 

But if needs must..😉.

[Dennis]

1 hour ago, Steven said:

with my M10R, I used to carry around half a dozen VNDs. Today, I couldn’t tell you where my filters are anymore….

Which is an awesome news. Do you still find the motion blur issue you told us in your previous M10-R? I thought you dislike the camera cause this issue.

 

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[IkarusJohn]

1 minute ago, Steven said:

The motion blur is still here, but not an issue to me anymore. In daylight, not an issue. In nighttime, I adapted to be more steady. When I can't, I just lose the megapixel advantage. 

It was just an issue really when I first got the camera, because I cared for was to zoom in to enjoy the high MP count. When I realised that the camera had much more to offer than that, I stopped zooming in my photos. 

Marvellous