M10-P or M10R

[Gobert]

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35 minutes ago, LBJ2 said:

Yes, good point. Honestly after someone has been shooting high MP cameras for a few years, not sure many would upgrade anything for "just more MPs" MP is not what attracts someone like me in this age of digital photography wizardry. 

I won’t be too sure. I think M photographers have above average interest in photography and cannot be compared with the average hobbyist.
Most of us might know people who have the severe opinion that their Multi MP smart phone produces better pictures than the pro cam camera’s of professional photographers. Only because of MP’s.

[LBJ2]

3 minutes ago, Herr Barnack said:

How are you defining "high MP cameras?" 

Where do we draw that line?

 

Apparently “we” do not draw the line. The manufacturers and the state of technology do and Peter Karbe has developed optical technology today for sensors that will exceed 100MP + so there is definitely more to come, maybe even much more to come. As I alluded earlier there are many other supporting technologies that also enhance the entire system as these MPs seems to increase. So I don’t think its so B&W to make a camera purchase or use decision based on sensor MP count alone. 

[jdlaing]

1 hour ago, LBJ2 said:

Yes, good point. Honestly after someone has been shooting high MP cameras for a few years, not sure many would upgrade anything for "just more MPs" MP is not what attracts someone like me in this age of digital photography wizardry. 

Me neither. And I’ve shot high megapixel cameras for over 5 years myself. I like the latitude. I’ve gotten used to them.

[jdlaing]

1 hour ago, Herr Barnack said:

How are you defining "high MP cameras?" 

Where do we draw that line?

 

Over 36 megapixels at the present time. That threshold will raise.

[otto.f]

2 hours ago, LBJ2 said:

traditional 1.5x or 2x FL rule still stands

Yes but I was used to FL/2, so 1/15 with a 35mm and even 1/8 on a good sober morning

[LBJ2]

Just now, otto.f said:

Yes but I was used to FL/2, so 1/15 with a 35mm and even 1/8 on a good sober morning

😎😉

[Tailwagger]

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I've had more than a few frames with motion blur... every single one 100% my fault.  The 10R in my experience might require a tick more care, but I've still shot down to the same shutter speeds I did with the 10 with similar results.  I could dig around for sharp 1/3" shots, but I took this one this morning that's perfectly representative of what the camera is capable of, particularly when the discussion seems to question the camera's ability in normal use at modest shutter speed.  Downsizing and the site might not do it justice, but trust me, as far as sharpness is concerned, you could cut a tomato with raw file. Standard processing, no additional sharpening, clarity, etc. 

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M10-R 50mm Lux BC, F2.8 1/90th 

Edited June 20, 2021 by Tailwagger

[Wandering Photographer]

I have a few of the wide angle Leica lenses that I use on my M10R. I like the lenses, but while the rectangular lens caps are cleverly designed, they have a tendency to get knocked off the lens hood when walking about. I’ve nearly lost one of them several times, once having to retrace my foot steps to lucky find it on the ground near a picnic table I had sat at and another time my partner found one lying on the ground in an outside stairwell at an inn we were staying at before I had even noticed it was missing. With usage their purchase on the lens hood becomes less secure. Given that they are just molded plastic, their replacement cost is exorbitant. It seems to me some clever engineer could come up with an equally convenient but more secure lens cover.

Leica, are you listening? 

[Photoworks]

3 hours ago, Wandering Photographer said:

I have a few of the wide angle Leica lenses that I use on my M10R. I like the lenses, but while the rectangular lens caps are cleverly designed, they have a tendency to get knocked off the lens hood when walking about. I’ve nearly lost one of them several times, once having to retrace my foot steps to lucky find it on the ground near a picnic table I had sat at and another time my partner found one lying on the ground in an outside stairwell at an inn we were staying at before I had even noticed it was missing. With usage their purchase on the lens hood becomes less secure. Given that they are just molded plastic, their replacement cost is exorbitant. It seems to me some clever engineer could come up with an equally convenient but more secure lens cover.

Leica, are you listening? 

I think the M lens caps are only when you store in the bag. 

Since the film days it is tradition to be ready to shoot and not have a lens caps especially if you have a lens shade to protect it. I think you do only once the mistake of shooting true the rangefinder to only contemplate why you photos didn't come out because you had the lens cap on.

If you ask the Leica store Miami for alternative lens caps they can serve you with one that holds better from some other company that goes over the rectangular lens shade

[Casey Jefferson]

On 6/19/2021 at 4:04 AM, otto.f said:

I made several photo’s with the Summicron 28 asph ii on the M10-R and had movement blur at even 1/1000 😳.

Can you confirm if it's really movement blur though? At that shutter speed and 28mm, one can probably shot with single hand even at 40mp.

Something sparked my interests when I came across this phenomenon recently when browsing M10-R dng's - some lenses are perhaps finally showing their optical character on 40mp sensor. I noticed the 35mm cron asph even had smears outside of center 1/3 @ f5.6 and 1/1000. Center was sharp as one can expect but as you go to the edges you start to see motion blur like smears.

 

[davorb]

10 minutes ago, Casey Jefferson said:

Can you confirm if it's really movement blur though? At that shutter speed and 28mm, one can probably shot with single hand even at 40mp.

Something sparked my interests when I came across this phenomenon recently when browsing M10-R dng's - some lenses are perhaps finally showing their optical character on 40mp sensor. I noticed the 35mm cron asph even had smears outside of center 1/3 @ f5.6 and 1/1000. Center was sharp as one can expect but as you go to the edges you start to see motion blur like smears.

 

Could also be shutter shock.

[otto.f]

23 minutes ago, Casey Jefferson said:

Can you confirm if it's really movement blur though? At that shutter speed and 28mm, one can probably shot with single hand even at 40mp.

Something sparked my interests when I came across this phenomenon recently when browsing M10-R dng's - some lenses are perhaps finally showing their optical character on 40mp sensor. I noticed the 35mm cron asph even had smears outside of center 1/3 @ f5.6 and 1/1000. Center was sharp as one can expect but as you go to the edges you start to see motion blur like smears.

 

Yes it puzzles me, here are a few examples, they are the first two or three photo's with the M10-R when trying it out. After that I see no movement blur in 130 photo's except in a few photo's of poppies in the wind, of which a few are tacksharp too. The focus point in all these images was the brickwall in the back @f2.0, so a bit unsharpness at the foreground is logical but the bike near the wall is unsharper than expected so close to the focuspoint, I'm not used that sort of 'bokeh' from my dear Summicron28. And the bricks themselves are not what you call... They were made in single shooting mode, not continuous

 

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Edited June 20, 2021 by otto.f

[otto.f]

10 minutes ago, davorb said:

Could also be shutter shock.

I thought this was the privilege of SLR's, caused by the mirror bouncing up, that's why I stepped over to M 😁

[Casey Jefferson]

58 minutes ago, otto.f said:

Yes it puzzles me, here are a few examples, they are the first two or three photo's with the M10-R when trying it out. After that I see no movement blur in 130 photo's except in a few photo's of poppies in the wind, of which a few are tacksharp too. The focus point in all these images was the brickwall in the back @f2.0, so a bit unsharpness at the foreground is logical but the bike near the wall is unsharper than expected so close to the focuspoint, I'm not used that sort of 'bokeh' from my dear Summicron28. And the bricks themselves are not what you call... They were made in single shooting mode, not continuous

 

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If it's shot wide open, it's not uncommon for Leica M lens though, at least I know both my 28 and 35 cron asph V1 exhibit this unsharp edges at f2 and gradually go away as one stop down. However since yours a V2 which should provide a lot better edge and corner performances. Moreover, the unsharp edges should be only just that - soft and unsharp, but if you do see smearing like motion blur, it could be something else? Or these lenses simply just show what they really render like under high resolution sensors.

Edited June 20, 2021 by Casey Jefferson

[otto.f]

Thanks for thinking along.

[davorb]

2 hours ago, otto.f said:

I thought this was the privilege of SLR's, caused by the mirror bouncing up, that's why I stepped over to M 😁

No, it's on mirrorless too. On the r5 they have electronic 1st curtain turned on by default, instead of pure mechanical shutter, to deal with shutter shock. It's much more noticeable at 45+ MPs.

[Wandering Photographer]

8 hours ago, Photoworks said:

I think the M lens caps are only when you store in the bag. 

Since the film days it is tradition to be ready to shoot and not have a lens caps especially if you have a lens shade to protect it. I think you do only once the mistake of shooting true the rangefinder to only contemplate why you photos didn't come out because you had the lens cap on.

If you ask the Leica store Miami for alternative lens caps they can serve you with one that holds better from some other company that goes over the rectangular lens shade

I typically focus with the range finder and then frame with the Visoflex on my M10-R, so leaving the lens cap on when trying to take a picture is a rare event. I am not able to see all 4 frame markers in the range finder view finder without moving my head with the 28 mm lens. I take the camera on hikes in the woods and use the lens cap to provide protection for the very expensive lens. Same with the 21 mm and 16-18-21 mm Elmar. 
 

Do you have the URL or other contact information for the Miami Leica store? Is that an official Leica Store like the one in Washington DC or an independent store specializing in Leica equipment?

[LBJ2]

3 hours ago, Wandering Photographer said:

I typically focus with the range finder and then frame with the Visoflex on my M10-R, so leaving the lens cap on when trying to take a picture is a rare event. I am not able to see all 4 frame markers in the range finder view finder without moving my head with the 28 mm lens. I take the camera on hikes in the woods and use the lens cap to provide protection for the very expensive lens. Same with the 21 mm and 16-18-21 mm Elmar. 
 

Do you have the URL or other contact information for the Miami Leica store? Is that an official Leica Store like the one in Washington DC or an independent store specializing in Leica equipment?

https://leicastoremiami.com

Email: info@leicastoremiami.com

[IkarusJohn]

I could never get a reliably sharp image with my d800e, and the A7r wasn’t much better, whereas the larger pixels on the X1D II were a dream.  I thought it was motion blur, as described by Ming.  But that doesn’t explain how the TL2 doesn’t suffer from the same issue, also with its smaller pixel.

I don’t doubt @Steven in his findings.  They concur with my own.  I suspect the explanation @Jaap gave some pages back might be the answer.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[tom0511]

Hm, I have been shooting with a m10r for some months now and have not run into the "blur-problem". If I had not read it in this thread I wouldnt even know there is a problem.

I am not shooting much low light though.

If I find the time I will shoot SL" and m10r side by side and see if there is a difference.

At what shutter times do I have to expect it?