M10-P or M10R

[lucerne]

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Thanks for your report Steven.  As i began reading i was excited.  Maybe you would sell me the -P.  !!

Difficult to find secondhand at a reasonable price in the UK.

But then reality appeared.  I'll have to wait, but i'll keep reading.

Good luck.

 

[jscottyk]

42 minutes ago, Steven said:

I got an M10R on loan this afternoon. It's the second time I use this camera, after owning it for about six weeks at the time of it's release. 

I went to the shop with a lens in my pocket, the very sharp 35AA. I walked with the camera and as it was sunny, I strolled around the city and shot a lot. 

I was instantly reminded of what I love about this camera. The gorgeous resolution and the new life it breathes into old lenses. The base ISO at 100, which makes my ND spend more time on the shelf. The noticeably better dynamic range, even from the screen on the back of the camera. The beautiful colours, as always with a Leica Camera. I love my afternoon with it, and started calculating how much I would have to shell out to trade in my M10P like I did last September (before reversing the trade with a huge loss). 

I came home one hour ago, and as the light was going down, I thought it was the perfect time to try shooting at lower shutter speed (my slowest SS outdoor 1/500th, most shots were above 1/2000, all at base ISO). So this is exactly what I did. I set the camera as I would set my M10P indoor. Auto ISO, maximum shutter speed 1/30th. 

I started shooting a couple photos of the kids around the house. 

D I S A S T ER

I was instantly reminded of what I hated about this camera. The motion blur. Almost all my photos below 1/125th had motion blur. Even at 1/90th, the results were bad. I pointed the camera at an object, stopped my breath and shot, ok fine. I pointed the camera at my kids while following them with my arms and shot. Blurry. I would say that I approximately got a 50% hit rate in comparison to my M10P in the same scenario. The photos taken at 1/45th were unusable, while with the M10P, I shoot a lot at 1/30th with printable results. 

I will continue testing for the next 48 hours. I am happy to receive any advice/request, this is why I expressed an opinion after just a few hours. But for now, I maintain what I said six months ago. The M10R is harder camera to shoot than the 24MP equivalent, and it requires faster shutter speeds if you intend to shoot anything else than an apple, a fence, a landscape, etc.... 

From my experience from last September and today, with a 35mm, you need to be at 1/250th to be safe, and can expect good constant results at 1/125th if you are focused (no pun intended) on what you're doing. 

What has change since September?

1. Many people have backed my theory after using themselves the M10R, so I am not a lone crazy guy anymore. 

2. I have now tested the M10M and had excellent results at 1/30th of a second. 

The mysteRy remains. 

Thanks for the report Steven. I appreciate you taking the time double check your previous experiences with another test, and I appreciate your write-up.

[Dennis]

1 hour ago, Steven said:

D I S A S T ER

I was instantly reminded of what I hated about this camera. The motion blur. 

😆 omg Steven ...

Leica? I own an M10 and a 50 Cron v5. The rest of my lenses are from other brands. My experience with Leica is minimal. I never used or just saw in person any different lenses and cameras except the ones I have. So, I don't know about M10-R, right? But I believe, I really think that the problem of the motion blur, it doesn't depend on the camera. It's human.

People reading your posts get significantly influenced, so for the sake of the community, always post whatever you want (of course), but be sure it's accurate information. Don't scare people. Maybe, read more about other techniques to avoid the issue, and find the source of the problem. I doubt you had bad luck twice. But hey, S&%$ happens, and it's random 🙂 

For example, Adan posted a fascinating tip here, people are not expecting this. And it works. Just with that you gain one extra stop of free IBIS 🙂

 

 

 

[Guest]

I get very good results at 1/30th with a 50. I can go to 1/24th, but it’s rolling the dice. This is an issue concerning technique and nothing else. 
 

Don’t hold your breath at low shutter speeds, slowly cock the shutter and gently push it home, time it with your heart rate. These are all things that are applicable to any camera if you want to shoot slow. 
 

Also, instead of plunging down with the tip of your finger, depressing with the side of your finger helps stabilize the camera in your hands. This is a helpful little tip that I picked up from the forum. 

Edited March 25, 2021 by Guest

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, Steven said:

Sure, let's blame it on my technique again! 

The point remains, though, that my technique is good enough for the M10P and not for the M10R. The M10R, then, requires more.... technique. 

Because it is. The M10r is a different camera than the P. You’ll need to adjust to get similar results. I went through the same thing with different bodies at varying levels of resolution. They all shoot a bit differently and require you to learn and adjust. It’s entirely up to you if that is something you’re up for or not. 

[Dennis]

4 minutes ago, Steven said:

The point remains, though, that my technique is good enough for the M10P and not for the M10R. The M10R, then, requires more.... technique. 

M10-R

Remember... "With great power comes great responsibility" 

The expert owners of the M10-R, the testers etc, should say if it's true. That maybe with a 40MP sensor, it's requested or preferred an extra stop, or two. No idea. 

[Ktsa5239]

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1 hour ago, Dennis said:

😆 omg Steven ...

Leica? I own an M10 and a 50 Cron v5. The rest of my lenses are from other brands. My experience with Leica is minimal. I never used or just saw in person any different lenses and cameras except the ones I have. So, I don't know about M10-R, right? But I believe, I really think that the problem of the motion blur, it doesn't depend on the camera. It's human.

People reading your posts get significantly influenced, so for the sake of the community, always post whatever you want (of course), but be sure it's accurate information. Don't scare people. Maybe, read more about other techniques to avoid the issue, and find the source of the problem. I doubt you had bad luck twice. But hey, S&%$ happens, and it's random 🙂 

For example, Adan posted a fascinating tip here, people are not expecting this. And it works. Just with that you gain one extra stop of free IBIS 🙂

 

 

 

I don’t understand why can’t we just accept Steven’s experience as it is?

I was influenced by his comments before buying the M10R and I also found the need for higher shutter speed (maybe not as extreme but it is noticeable) but that’s ok with me. I have no intention of going back to the M10 because of the incredible results I get on tripods. 

I just don’t see the problem with different people posting different experiences. 

[Dennis]

11 minutes ago, Ktsa5239 said:

I don’t understand why can’t we just accept Steven’s experience as it is?

Of course we do. Sometimes we agree,  sometimes not. But I respect all the decisions. And I said that mine is just an opinion, without having tried the camera.

 

13 minutes ago, Ktsa5239 said:

I just don’t see the problem with different people posting different experiences. 

Me either, no problem.

ALWAYS good vibes here

[hdmesa]

29 minutes ago, Steven said:

Thank you very much for your post. And you prove one more thing. My experience is mine. Yours is yours. Another's is himself! I need to shoot at 1/250th to get acceptable results. Up to me wether I want to do it or not. You might just need 1/90th, according to your shooting style, and it's up to you wether it's worth the sacrifice or not. And just to take an extreme, tripod shooters who use a soft release cable will not see a difference, even with a 2s shutter speed ! 

Have you yet compared the M10-R shots in post with M10-P shots in post with them magnified to the same size? That is, try both of these: 1. M10-P zoomed to 200% – do you see the same blur you seen the R? 2. M10-R zoomed out to 50% – does it look like your P now? I guess I'm saying that if you shoot the R like it's the P and reduce your files in size by half when exporting your JPEG, won't you get the benefits of the R except the higher res? Besides, shooting kids moving isn't really a need for 40mp anyway, so you can size down for that application and still get to enjoy the higher res shots in daylight where shutter speeds are > 1/250 sec.

If your R shots sized down by half still look blurrier than your P, something else may be going on between models. Me personally – no way in hell I could have taken photos of movement at 1/30 sec. with ANY camera and not had blur. Not sure how you managed that voodoo on the P.

[hdmesa]

4 hours ago, Steven said:

...I set the camera as I would set my M10P indoor. Auto ISO, maximum shutter speed 1/30th. 

I started shooting a couple photos of the kids around the house. 

D I S A S T ER

...

In defense of those blaming your technique, I'm trying to imagine in what world you can use 1/30 of a second and get sharp shots of kids. Why not try to get sharp shots of a still object to remove subject movement from the equation?

[Guest]

Hopefully it’s OK to post photos in this thread, if not I apologize. Here’s a shot at 1/60th of a second, at F2 on a moving subject. Focal length is 50mm and I don’t prefocus, I just chase this little bugger around. My point is it’s perfectly possible to use the R at slower shutter speeds, it just takes a bit of dedication and practice. Which is part of the fun, in my opinion. If you really enjoy the files, I’d stick it out and I think over time you’ll see improvements as you get used to how the camera handles. 

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[Dennis]

7 minutes ago, Wallflower said:

My point is it’s perfectly possible to use the R at slower shutter speeds, it just takes a bit of dedication and practice. Which is part of the fun, in my opinion. If you really enjoy the files, I’d stick it out and I think over time you’ll see improvements as you get used to how the camera handles. 

+1

What would I do, in Steven's position, to understand it better? IMHO, it's not about testing similar scenes and moments of the day with two different cameras. I would shoot one week or two, with each camera, between 1/15 and 1/250 exclusively in all the situations presented. By day, by night, indoor, outdoor, kids, squirrels, architecture, street, environment portraits. This, to really understand each camera's behavior at specific SS. And of course, having a lot of fun in the middle. This means bye-bye wide open in many cases 🙂 Well, it's time to give a chance to other f/stops. 

During my weekly or monthly custom challenges and tests, I found recently very enjoyable, to say one, that my TT 35/1.4 is very cinematic wide open at large distances and infinity. I like it. Nothing very sharp, and still enjoyable. I don't usually shoot wide open, but I find myself in my f/1.4 month challenge. When I was using f/1.4, it always was at close and medium distances. As Picasso says: "Inspiration exists, and it has to find you working." 

Shoot, shoot, shoot first, a lot, then you look at the photos. Try to do different tests, try it in another way, and find your solution to the issue, if there is one. Or you will confirm your unique personal limit to shoot with the M10-R. It a win-win. It worth trying.  Because apart from the blur issue, it looks like you prefer the M10-R, right?

[SoarFM]

3 hours ago, Steven said:

Can that talk about UV and IR have anything to do with that ? Please someone explain ! 

I have had a UV filter of the highest quality ruin one image after another indoors with the dreaded green dot which instantly disappears when the filter is removed. The lesson I have learned is that low light, with specular lights seems to provoke this—think parties and holiday lights... Probably the same for stalking the night streets.

There was a time when I convinced myself that real photographers don’t use protective filters and then I would put a mark on the front element that didn’t affect the image quality one bit, but it would irk me to no end and of course, should you decide to sell the lens, you’ll take a hit for it. So I use high grade filters on all the lenses andI take the filter off when I think I am at risk of filter flares, and then it goes right back on. I have come to believe that a high grade filter will not affect image quality of even the most exquisite lens, but flare is flare. I believe I even heard Peter Karbe, of Leica renown, express indifference to a protective filter being placed on the front of his masterpieces.  

That doesn’t answer your question—sorry!

 

[hdmesa]

3 hours ago, Wallflower said:

Hopefully it’s OK to post photos in this thread, if not I apologize. Here’s a shot at 1/60th of a second, at F2 on a moving subject. Focal length is 50mm and I don’t prefocus, I just chase this little bugger around. My point is it’s perfectly possible to use the R at slower shutter speeds, it just takes a bit of dedication and practice. Which is part of the fun, in my opinion. If you really enjoy the files, I’d stick it out and I think over time you’ll see improvements as you get used to how the camera handles. 

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Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Looks slightly blurred and slightly out of focus. Still, this is better than I could do because I'd grab my R5 for this kind of subject.

I first noticed when using the GFX (50mp, no IBIS) that 1/60 sec. was hit or miss even when shooting a static subject – that is IF I was going to need pixel-level sharpness at 100% magnification. Micro-blur is the bane of high res sensors without IBIS. 

I do think we need to be clear that 1/30 or 1/60 of a sec. at any resolution will NOT freeze even casual subject motion, so what we're really talking about here is 1.) having the technique to get a sharp shot of a still subject combined with 2.) the ability to wait until the exact moment that the subject is totally frozen. Anything else would be panning. This kind of scenario (things that move + low shutter speeds) is a really poor way to try and compare a 24mp camera with a 40mp camera.

Edited March 26, 2021 by hdmesa

[Guest]

18 minutes ago, hdmesa said:

Looks slightly blurred and slightly out of focus. Still, this is better than I could do because I'd grab my R5 for this kind of subject.

I first noticed when using the GFX (50mp, no IBIS) that 1/60 sec. was hit or miss even when shooting a static subject – that is IF I was going to need pixel-level sharpness at 100% magnification. Micro-blur is the bane of high res sensors without IBIS. 

I do think we need to be clear that 1/30 or 1/60 of a sec. at any resolution will NOT freeze even casual subject motion, so what we're really talking about here is 1.) having the technique to get a sharp shot of a still subject combined with 2.) the ability to wait until the exact moment that the subject is totally frozen. Anything else would be panning. This kind of scenario (things that move + low shutter speeds) is a really poor way to try and compare a 24mp camera with a 40mp camera.

You’re seeing the loss of resolution of having to resize for the forum. It’s very sharp and in focus. The gist of my post is that having a higher res sensor doesn’t preclude you from being able to use lower shutter speeds. It’s not difficult at all. It just takes practice.

I also have an R5, and it makes shots like this too easy. I went from shooting across  too many formats/subjects and burnt out. The M10r has made photography challenging again in a way that I miss. So, there’s my two cents. Take it or leave it. 

Edited March 26, 2021 by Guest

[hdmesa]

7 minutes ago, Wallflower said:

...The gist of my post is that having a higher res sensor doesn’t preclude from being able to use lower shutter speeds. 

That is true, but not when talking about moving subjects ("photos of kids at 1/30 sec." started this). The only way to get a sharp shot of a squirrel or kid at 1/60 of a second is to catch them completely still between movements. If you can do that, then the only limit to your shutter speed is your handheld technique.

Edited March 26, 2021 by hdmesa

[Guest]

1 minute ago, hdmesa said:

That is true, but not when talking about moving subjects ("photos of kids at 1/30 sec." started this). The only way to get a sharp shot of a squirrel or kid at 1/60 of a second is to catch them completely still between movements. If you can do that, then the only limit to your shutters speed is your handheld technique.

Right. It’s all down to timing. Which is very much the essence of photography. Not everyone has the patience for that, and that is understandable.

[MarkP]

6 minutes ago, Steven said:

Mate, don't worry so much about my technique. My technique is excellent. I too can get squirrel shots if I put the efforts in. Maybe even at 1/30th. My photography skills are more than fine. 

All I'm saying is that it requires more effort than on a smaller resolution. Of course, one can take incredible photos in any scenarios with an M10R. The only thing I do not accept is the statement from some that the bump in resolution had no impact on shutter speed. It did. And a lot. Now depending on your photography style, it might impact you more or less. For the tripod shooters, they'll see now difference. For the chilled handheld shooters, it'll make no difference. My style of "candid" photography relies on a more "effortless" style of shooting, so the difference is real. 

Now wether one is willing to put in the extra efforts that you described to make the M10R works, that's up to each and everyone of us to decide. But I am not misleading people when I am warning them the the M10R might require you to adapt your shooting style because of motion blur. That's the only thing I'm saying. 

As a matter of fact, I might make the sacrifice and go for the M10R again. I have been loving the sensor too much since yesterday. It's so good.... 

I've got till Wednesday to decide, before the price increase. I was proposed to upgrade to a brand new R for 3,300 euros + my P. 

This is my current justification/excuse for keeping and not upgrading the M10, and using the SL2 as my high-res landscape (etc) camera.  

Don't know how long I'll hold out though... 🙄

 

Edited March 26, 2021 by MarkP

[MarkP]

The

 

1 minute ago, Steven said:

Hard for me to see what they can improve on the M11. But assuming that they will not add ibis and not change the body size, the only areas of improvement now are: 

- Low light (it's pretty shitty right now)

- Fast shutter speeds (please god) 

- Better processor for better buffer ? I dont really care

- Better visoflex

Yep...

I'll add:

Better dynamic range
They may yet try for IBIS
 

 

Edited March 26, 2021 by MarkP

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[nuc001]

1 hour ago, MarkP said:

The

 

Yep...

I'll add:

Better dynamic range
They may yet try for IBIS
 

 

Electronic shutter would also be a welcome addition if they can't increase the speed of the mechanical shutter. 1/4,000 is too low if you live somewhere that's sunny all year round.