Predictive Focusing on S3

[Deliberate1]

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As the owner of an 006 and 007, I have read the portraits of the new S 3 with but casual interest. To be sure, guys like me. who are invested in the system, is Leica's market. I say casual because I get wonderful results with the 006, at least when it is atop a tripod and the subject is static. And the 007 is the camera that I have used as my travel/street rig for a couple years. It is a considerably more functional camera than its predecessor, and with two or more additional stops, it has a much wider shooting envelope. I print with a venerable, 15 year old Epson 7800, which limits prints to 24" on the short edge. I have never, ever found that the files from either camera were lacking in any respect, so long as I respect the shooting perameters, especially of the 006. I describe that as the perfect camera for perfect conditions (like its little brother, the M9, which I also have).

So, reading the details of the S3, and especially the major difference, the larger sensor, left me largely unmoved. Reaching further into the darkness would be nice, but my night work is typically on a tripod. I usually crop in camera, so working with a fractional image does not move the needle much.

But when I read that there is a new focusing system, that caught my eye. Lagging, equivocating and inaccurate auto focusing is the bane of my experience with this camera. And the 007 is worse than the 006 in the way that it hunts and pecks to find a point to light on in anything but optimal circumstances. And sometimes it hits the mark, and sometimes not. I have a Q which is a focusing demon - instantaneous. So, if the S3 interests me at all, it would only be if the focusing system was truly a game changer. Or, I should say, one that owners should reasonably expect in the flagship product of a storied company. Can anyone illuminate the reported new focusing system, and, most important, is new better.

Cheers all.

David

Edited August 1, 2020 by Deliberate1

[LeicaR10]

David,  I have owned all the S cameras to date and now the S3.  To answer your question on AF speed I need to say I rarely use AF on any past or present S camera as I do landscape photography.  I can say the S3 AF speed is not the SL2 in speed.  It is faster, but to me, it means nothing as I do everything manually.  I have the S3 for the sensor size, improved color and of course, the superb S lenses for rendering the scenes.  My clients are very demanding for detail in the very large prints that I create.  A number of Leica dealers are now receiving their S3 demos and perhaps you might consider doing a AF speed test with them.  r/ Mark 

Edited August 6, 2020 by LeicaR10

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[Stuart Richardson]

May I ask where you read that there was a new focusing system? It was my impression that almost nothing was new, other than the sensor, associated processing and the color filter array...

[LeicaR10]

Stuart,  I can not write for David, but on the Leica Camera AG website in the S3 description it mentions an improved predictive AF.  You might try this link.  https://au.leica-camera.com/Photography/Leica-S/Leica-S3/Details  .   As I mentioned above, I don't use the AF on the S cameras so it is a mute point for me.  Hope this helps.  r/ Mark

PS...Just scroll down in the link to the Auto Focus description.

Edited August 6, 2020 by LeicaR10

[Deliberate1]

11 hours ago, Stuart Richardson said:

May I ask where you read that there was a new focusing system? It was my impression that almost nothing was new, other than the sensor, associated processing and the color filter array...

Stuart, as LR10 indicates above, this is the promo language that peaked my interest:

The revised and improved predictive autofocus system of the Leica S3 always looks one step ahead. The lens and the camera act together as a perfect unit that takes the most direct way to sharp images. The autofocus is designed to quickly yet smoothly move to optimum image sharpness and can even incorporate corrections made in the very last fraction of a second. In a way that is absolutely essential for dynamic photography, it recognises all movements of a subject during the focusing process. (misspell in original)

Cheers,

David

[sebben]

This is the text for the 007 autofocus system.

Autofocus
A new dynamic experience

The revised predictive autofocus system of the Leica S thinks one step ahead: it identifies movement in your subject and calculates how far your subject will have moved at the moment of exposure.

Focus corrections are applied in the last fraction of a second. The combination of fascinating picture quality and the high continuous shooting rate open up new horizons for you in the area of dynamic photography.

Edited August 7, 2020 by sebben

[John Smith]

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2 hours ago, sebben said:

This is the text for the 007 autofocus system.

Autofocus
A new dynamic experience

The revised predictive autofocus system of the Leica S thinks one step ahead: it identifies movement in your subject and calculates how far your subject will have moved at the moment of exposure.

Focus corrections are applied in the last fraction of a second. The combination of fascinating picture quality and the high continuous shooting rate open up new horizons for you in the area of dynamic photography.

The S3 had a better writer.

[Stuart Richardson]

My guess is that the writer is the only thing they improved...

Seriously though, they may have taken time to improve or optimize the focusing system, but I would assume if they made any major changes it would have been a bigger selling point. I do not recall hearing about anything from David Farkas...I imagine he would have mentioned it. He would be a good person to contact to see if any changes were made. I have learned to be careful with Leica marketing speak. I bought the zoom on the grounds that they marketed it as being as good as the primes, something which it is, but only for about 2/3rds of the frame. The edges simply are not comparable.

 

[Jeff S]

Toni Felsner, S3 Product Manager, also did not mention anything related to focus improvements when interviewed by David in 2018.  I also haven’t heard that subsequent delays had anything to do with focusing.

https://www.reddotforum.com/content/2018/09/photokina-2018-the-leica-s3/
 

Jeff

[glenerrolrd]

NO changes were made to the AF system in the S3 .  I checked this a number of different ways (reliable sources ) including my use of the S3 .  

If you have an s 006 and s 007 you understand the weaknesses in the AF system  .  The system works off of the highest contrast element that is framed by the large AF circle . It is quite easily fooled and appears inaccurate even when the focus point is obvious .  The key to making the system work for you is to place the AF circle so that your desired focus point is the only possible target . 

To make the system work well you must have sufficient eye strength to evaluate the focus point thru the  OVF .  Use the AF to get close then fine tune with the manual focus .  

The technique you use should vary by subject ..e.g. for landscape use the LCD screen and magnified view .  For sports ...use predictive zone focusing and fine tune manually . For portraits .use AF to get close and then fine tune manually .  

AF with an S body is a long way from point and trust the camera .  

The idea that it could follow focus anything is ridiculous .  

This is the weakest aspect of the S3 ..the sensor and the color rendering is terrific ..to my eye much better than the S 007 . Appears in between the S 006(CCD) and S 007 (CMOS) rendering of skin tones .  I am keeping my S 006 for portrait work and waiting impatiently to trade in my s 007 for the S3 . 

[Deliberate1]

16 hours ago, glenerrolrd said:

 

If you have an s 006 and s 007 you understand the weaknesses in the AF system  .  

Good post. It is a disappointing, albeit accurate, assessment of my own experience with the S's rather primitive, or at least ineffectual, auto focus system. As you point out, there are work-arounds with MF which are surely facilitated by the bright OVF, and a split screen option which I have on my 006. There are, of course, classic focusing techniques, like zone focusing, as you mention. But to take full advantage of that, all other ducks must be in order. You have to be able to shoot at a sufficiently stopped down aperture to get the point of interest in focus. And that can be a challenge with slow Summarit lenses, in 35mm terms. A good capture also depends on a shutter speed sufficient to freeze any action or eliminate the effect of camera or hand shake. As we all know, shutter speed and aperture opening run in opposite directions to preserve an exposure balance.  To address those variables, and find an acceptable combination, you have to be able to shoot at a higher ISO, which triggers a different set of considerations. If there are no mechanical changes to the focusing system, as it appears, then the only "enhancement" with the S3 is the ability to shoot at an effectively higher ISO, thereby permitting shooting more stopped down with broader DOF, and facilitating a higher shutter speed . Once again, I am left with the disappointing conclusion that the Achilles heel of this otherwise stellar system is the AF. If you shoot landscapes or in controlled environments or atop a tripod, or in the bright of day, all is well. But if you are trying to track and capture your 12 week old puppy when the late afternoon light is just perfect, time for the Q. 

David

Edited August 8, 2020 by Deliberate1

[John Smith]

17 hours ago, glenerrolrd said:

This is the weakest aspect of the S3 ..the sensor and the color rendering is terrific ..to my eye much better than the S 007 . Appears in between the S 006(CCD) and S 007 (CMOS) rendering of skin tones .  I am keeping my S 006 for portrait work and waiting impatiently to trade in my s 007 for the S3 . 

The color, increased ISO performance, and resolution are desirable for me. Given the fact that the S3 has the same processor and body as the 007, I wouldn’t put much, if any, stock in increased AF performance. The AF system is what it is. 

[BernardC]

The only way that the S AF performance can be significantly hastened is by redesigning the lenses to use significantly smaller/lighter focusing elements, and focus-by-wire. That's what they did with the SL lenses.

The downside is that you lose all manual focus feel, and the character of the lenses is compromised. You would also end-up with a conflicted camera that has the best viewfinder ever, and lenses that are frustrating to focus manually. All focus-by-wire lenses are, it's a problem that hasn't yet been solved.

I'm not sure those changes would go over well with the S' core customer base, which is high-end professionals specializing in fashion, editorial, and lifestyle.

 

To put things a different way, here's what a photographer told me after having a look through my S: "if I had a viewfinder like that, I wouldn't need AF!"

[Chaemono]

vor 20 Stunden schrieb glenerrolrd:

vor 20 Stunden schrieb glenerrolrd:

[...]
...The system works off of the highest contrast element that is framed by the large AF circle . It is quite easily fooled and appears inaccurate even when the focus point is obvious .  The key to making the system work for you is to place the AF circle so that your desired focus point is the only possible target . 
[...]

I tried a used 70 Summarit from 2012 on the S3 and focusing was as you describe. Bought a new 70 Summarit (manufacturing date 08/2018) and focusing is pinpoint accurate. 

Edited August 8, 2020 by Chaemono

[LeicaR10]

BernardC,  Your last sentence in your Post #13 is my same assessment.  As I stated in earlier posts here, AF is something I don't use for landscape photography.  The S cameras OVF is superb and ditto for the S lenses.  Everyone has different requirements and may need AF and it is there.  Sometimes, photographers seem to forget the S lens were designed on 13+ year old AF technology.  What makes S lenses special are the optics.  The S lenses were engineered from the ground up to work with digital sensors and can out resolve future sensor resolution improvements.  If Leica wants to go beyond 60 MP, the S lenses optically will do that in spades.  If photographers need or want faster AF...buy into the SL system or some other brand.  But for myself and my demanding clients, the S system helps me create photographs they gladly buy.   Last, IMO your post is spot on.  r/ Mark

[ynp]

On 8/8/2020 at 8:57 PM, Chaemono said:

I tried a used 70 Summarit from 2012 on the S3 and focusing was as you describe. Bought a new 70 Summarit (manufacturing date 08/2018) and focusing is pinpoint accurate. 

Why did it happen? Better AF motor or anything else?

[helged]

9 minutes ago, ynp said:

Why did it happen? Better AF motor or anything else?

My guess: A lens (mis)calibration issue. 

Edited August 10, 2020 by helged

[Stuart Richardson]

The focusing system in the S uses information from both the camera body and the lens in order to focus. Rather than allow for AF tuning in the body, Leica instead measures every camera and lens for its exact tolerance, and the focusing system refers to those values to make it spot on. In certain cases, if the body and lens are both at opposite ends of spec, you might wind up with a system that has a harder time achieving focus. Or perhaps the lens or body went out of spec at some point...

As for focusing with the S in general, I have not had too many troubles, but I have treated it like Roger. Anything in that circle is usually fair game for the body to focus on...I generally just try to find a fairly equidistant area to place within the circle. I have not noticed this as a problem with landscapes or portraits. On the contrary, the focus accuracy has always been really good for me. That said, it is an older style system and will not be able to achieve the speed or accuracy of a system such as the one used in the SL, let alone in a Sony or Nikon etc. The fact that the camera even offers AFc strikes me as a bit dubious. Seems like more likely to get you into trouble than to help in most situations.

[albireo_double]

After a week of shooting with the S3, I can report that AF feels no different than with the S007. Nothing "predictive" about it. Especially the S100 is still hard to hit accurate focus with, in any lower light/contrast situations. I ended up focussing manually most of the time and bracketing my focus. On the other hand, and consistent with my S007 experience, the S180 gives me much more reliable AF performance so it is not unusual for me to switch to the longer lens in mid-shoot. But, as before, it is all workable and the pictures are great when focused properly.

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[hoppyman]

I recall hearing somewhere here a claim by Stefan Daniel in an interview that the production camera design was changed after feedback by testers. That was meant to be part of the reason for delay in availability. There seems to be very little in this forum from anyone with a production camera. Perhaps there are just very few cameras in circulation so far?

Or at least it isn’t clear to me which posts are about beta tests and which about production cameras.

The fundamental design doesn’t appear to have changed. What may have been adjusted in the production I couldn’t say. It can never possibly operate like the SL2 for example.

In my experience from the S2 forward, the system needs to be used differently. In my instance that means back button focus while in MF, recompose and benefiting from the DoF of smaller apertures in studio. Others will use the system quite differently of course. I never found the AFc useful on any occasion with this system, while it’s very useful with the SL2

Edited August 10, 2020 by hoppyman