Predictive Focusing on S3

[glenerrolrd]

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14 hours ago, hoppyman said:

I recall hearing somewhere here a claim by Stefan Daniel in an interview that the production camera design was changed after feedback by testers. That was meant to be part of the reason for delay in availability. There seems to be very little in this forum from anyone with a production camera. Perhaps there are just very few cameras in circulation so far?

Or at least it isn’t clear to me which posts are about beta tests and which about production cameras.

The fundamental design doesn’t appear to have changed. What may have been adjusted in the production I couldn’t say. It can never possibly operate like the SL2 for example.

In my experience from the S2 forward, the system needs to be used differently. In my instance that means back button focus while in MF, recompose and benefiting from the DoF of smaller apertures in studio. Others will use the system quite differently of course. I never found the AFc useful on any occasion with this system, while it’s very useful with the SL2

I would love to see that interview . Having asked the question to numerous Leica employees and many times on this forum .   I was told not to expect any differences in the AF system .  

Of course the capabilities of the AF system matter .  By far the number one factor affecting image quality (controlled by the photographer ) is the placement of the focus plane (point ) . AF is an aid ....employed to improve your performance .  With experience ,technique ,hand /eye coordination and excellent eyesight ....you can develop an approach that results in a decent or good enough hit rate .  

I found that PRACTICE  and feedback really matter in my hit rate .  I used to shoot tennis ... a lot ...and could to some extent follow focus manually because I knew the sport so well . After  shooting tennis all day ....I could focus for street shooting well enough to catch a person running .  

Another consideration is “what hit rate do you really need “ ...how many selects do you need .  In fashion you can knock off 30-40 captures in a 3 minute session...without using continuous capture .  So I would prefer maybe 6-12 out of a full shoot of several hundred .  

AF capabilities are one of the trade offs sacrificed by Leica S users to gain the image quality and the aesthetic possible thru MF . 

 

[hoppyman]

You might search the threads to find the link for that interview I mentioned if interested. For clarity on what I recall , the comment was to the effect that fixing some identified deficiency contributed to delay in release of the S3. It did not mention AF specifically.  I don’t know if any AF function has improved.
Given the inherent system design limitations, AFC with the S system is just not useful for MY photography. It is a real strength of the SL2 for me since I started using that instead for last several shoots. 

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[glenerrolrd]

The issue with the S AF ..is not continuous focus or follow focus .  We should just rule that aspect out of the discussion (at this point ).  The S system was never designed to support even a basic level of follow focus .  (What a bad joke that Leica marketing would even imply that the S could be used for predictive focusing ). 

The S system AF is crude by any criteria .  The AF area measured is much too large and easily results in incorrect results .  You can learn to use it and improve by placing the AF measured area in a way to catch the edge of your desired focus point . You have a large bright view finder to allow for manual verification and adjustment .  However the area measured can not be moved around the frame nor can it be reduced in size .   You need excellent eye sight and frequent usage or practice to achieve good hit rates of precise focus .  

 Each photographers personal evaluation is based heavily on the type of work ...for which they anticipate using the gear. 

                     1. Landscape 

                     2. Fashion /Commercial 

                     3.Street/Travel/Personal 

                    4. Sports/Action 

I ve used the S system extensively in all of the above .  I think it is terrific for Landscape ...and look forward to have the new sensor .  I would always use LV and focus peaking viewing from the rear LCD .   The AF is a crude starting point .  

For fashion /commercial work ...the AF is a real weakness and has to be considered against the advantages of the MF aesthetic .  Its quite difficult to shoot wide open and nail the focus .  Similar observations for street/travel/sports /action .  For all the advantages of an OVF in really “seeing” .....its very weak as a focus aid compared to modern EVF .  

 

 

[BernardC]

17 hours ago, hoppyman said:

the comment was to the effect that fixing some identified deficiency contributed to delay in release of the S3

The easy guess is that it had to do with fine-tuning the new sensor. It's probably not a coincidence that the M10 Monochrom and M10R came out shortly after the S3. They all use the same sensor architecture.

[Jeff S]

8 minutes ago, BernardC said:

The easy guess is that it had to do with fine-tuning the new sensor. It's probably not a coincidence that the M10 Monochrom and M10R came out shortly after the S3. They all use the same sensor architecture.

Possibly related to promised improvements in the red channel/skin tones.

Jeff

[Stuart Richardson]

Also keep in mind that if it focuses as well as the 007, that in a way could be considered an improvement, as nailing the focus on 64mp vs 37mp is proportionally more difficult. Or at least that is what logic suggests to me, but perhaps it is not related to the resolution. Perhaps some of the time was spent making sure that the AF could be as accurate on 64mp as it was on 37mp...

[glenerrolrd]

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I have asked the question about AF many many times since the Beta tests .  Leica has been steadfast in refusing to answer any questions about the AF system .  Consistently I get “off  the record “ from highly reliable sources ....they did not change the AF between the S 007 and the S3 .  

I was able to shoot the S3 right next to a Panasonic S1R and compare the results .  Using a 100/2 summicron I found the S3 to be terrific ..the color.. particularly skin tones was a big improvement .  It was very hard to focus  wide open and consistently get sharp focus on the leading eye .  It was also as you predicted .. a lot easier to see even small misses .  The aesthetic was brilliant ..best in class .  But AF was a real weakness . 

The Panasonic S1R was a lot easier to nail focus wide open (using a 90/2 SL lens ) ... images were perfect but not as aesthetically pleasing as the S3 .  

 

Edited August 14, 2020 by glenerrolrd

[Deliberate1]

3 hours ago, glenerrolrd said:

 It was also as you predicted .. a lot easier to see even small misses .  The aesthetic was brilliant ..best in class .  But AF was a real weakness . 

 

 

OP here, and obliged for that, though disappointed. Perhaps it would have been more accurate to call the AF "Predictable" vs. "Predictive."

David

Edited August 14, 2020 by Deliberate1

[SrMi]

On 8/12/2020 at 7:56 AM, BernardC said:

The easy guess is that it had to do with fine-tuning the new sensor. It's probably not a coincidence that the M10 Monochrom and M10R came out shortly after the S3. They all use the same sensor architecture.

In this interview, Leica representative says about S3 sensor:

"No, this is a completely new design, made specifically for the Leica S3. You will not see this sensor technology in any other camera."

Maybe adapting the sensor technology to M10-R and M10-M was what caused the delay of S3.

[tom0511]

I read it again and again, but never a prove or official statement that indicates S3 sensor was used for m10r. I also cant believe M10r should deliver as good color and DR like the S3

[SrMi]

2 hours ago, tom0511 said:

I read it again and again, but never a prove or official statement that indicates S3 sensor was used for m10r. I also cant believe M10r should deliver as good color and DR like the S3

Same type, but larger sensor size implies better PDR (see Sony a7rIV vs. GFX100). Even though the underlying sensor may be the same, the sensor toppings and data processing are likely different. Hence, better color and PDR with S3 :).

However, I cannot find any Leica's statement about S3 sensor. We only know that M10R and M10M sensors are related.

[Chaemono]

vor 4 Stunden schrieb tom0511:

I read it again and again, but never a prove or official statement that indicates S3 sensor was used for m10r. I also cant believe M10r should deliver as good color and DR like the S3

We keep writing it again and again because of deductive reasoning - need for economies of scale in sensor design and manufacturing - and because of empirical evidence - same pixel pitch, pixel area, pixel density, like M (Typ 240) and S Typ (007).

[John Smith]

5 hours ago, tom0511 said:

I read it again and again, but never a prove or official statement that indicates S3 sensor was used for m10r. I also cant believe M10r should deliver as good color and DR like the S3

If I remember right, Stefan Daniel talks about it in this video.

Edited August 28, 2020 by John Smith

[SrMi]

5 minutes ago, John Smith said:

If I remember right, Stefan Daniel talks about it in this video.

Thank you, I forgot about it. At 41:26:

".. so i have to say that the sensor of the m10 monochrome and the m10r and even the Leica s3 are pretty similar so the pixel design the pixel architecture architecture itself is the same.."
 

[tom0511]

"pretty similar"...anyways, Why cant they make a cropped S3 sensor with S3 color and DR and put it in a m11 or SL3, 16bit please. This would be pretty cool

[helged]

6 minutes ago, tom0511 said:

"pretty similar"...anyways, Why cant they make a cropped S3 sensor with S3 color and DR and put it in a m11 or SL3, 16bit please. This would be pretty cool

As far as I understand, M10-R is a cropped version of the S3 sensor. 

[Jeff S]

1 hour ago, helged said:

As far as I understand, M10-R is a cropped version of the S3 sensor. 

We’ve beaten this to death elsewhere.  But we don’t have specifics regarding the color arrays, etc that are bonded to the respective sensors.  Much has been made, for instance, about the improved reds from the S3, but we don’t know if a similar approach was incorporated in the M10-R.  At the least, we know that the micro lens structures must be specific to the requirements of the M vs S systems.

Jeff

[Jeff S]

1 hour ago, tom0511 said:

"pretty similar"...anyways, Why cant they make a cropped S3 sensor with S3 color and DR and put it in a m11 or SL3, 16bit please. This would be pretty cool

Not even the S3 is true 16 bit.  As David Farkas has explained....

The S (Typ 007) also used 14-bit precision from the D/A stage as well. Both the S3 and the S007 store the resulting 14-bit raw data in a 16-bit DNG container, and both are capable of 15+ stops of dynamic range. For full details, check out the article we published around the launch of the S007, based on a conversation with Dr. Volker Zimmer, the head of R&D for Leica.

Jeff

[John Smith]

8 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

We’ve beaten this to death elsewhere.  But we don’t have specifics regarding the color arrays, etc that are bonded to the respective sensors.  Much has been made, for instance, about the improved reds from the S3, but we don’t know if a similar approach was incorporated in the M10-R.  At the least, we know that the micro lens structures must be specific to the requirements of the M vs S systems.

Jeff

In some other video (can't think of which one now), I believe Stefan Daniel said they didn't make any changes to the colors in the M10R.  

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[SrMi]

1 hour ago, helged said:

As far as I understand, M10-R is a cropped version of the S3 sensor. 

.. but with different sensor 'toppings'.