wizard Posted July 22, 2020 Share #21 Posted July 22, 2020 Advertisement (gone after registration) vor 2 Stunden schrieb willeica: I take it that you are not a collector, just a conserver. Correct. vor 2 Stunden schrieb willeica: There are many things more important than condition when it comes to collecting old cameras, but if I have to explain then you obviously don't get it. Oh, I am sure I would get it in the sense that I would understand it (I do not consider myself dumb, but then who does), but there is no need for further explanation, as I am well aware of what is important when judging things from a collector's point of view (authenticity to name but one important aspect). The whole discussion started when you said "we all love that brassing" and I took the liberty to disagree. As a user, I certainly do not love brassing (for the reasons pointed out above), but I now understand that you obviously expressed this as a collector. And while I am not a collector, some Leica items I do own would be regarded highly by collectors because they are fully original, unrestored (at least optically unrestored, but I do take pride in my items being mechanically fully functional) but still in excellent condition. Andy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted July 22, 2020 Posted July 22, 2020 Hi wizard, Take a look here Observations on the demise of the black paint Leica. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
willeica Posted July 22, 2020 Share #22 Posted July 22, 2020 3 hours ago, wizard said: Correct. Oh, I am sure I would get it in the sense that I would understand it (I do not consider myself dumb, but then who does), but there is no need for further explanation, as I am well aware of what is important when judging things from a collector's point of view (authenticity to name but one important aspect). The whole discussion started when you said "we all love that brassing" and I took the liberty to disagree. As a user, I certainly do not love brassing (for the reasons pointed out above), but I now understand that you obviously expressed this as a collector. And while I am not a collector, some Leica items I do own would be regarded highly by collectors because they are fully original, unrestored (at least optically unrestored, but I do take pride in my items being mechanically fully functional) but still in excellent condition. Andy We agree at last. I might add that I don't go looking for 'brassing', it just doesn't bother me if it is there and I suppose we better not go near 'patina'. William Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted July 22, 2020 Share #23 Posted July 22, 2020 Having seen Brian Brake’s black M2, with most of the paint worn off, I can see the attraction of brassing. That is largely in the knowledge of Brake’s travels through China in the 1960s. That is why that M2 is in our national museum ... 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ambro51 Posted July 22, 2020 Share #24 Posted July 22, 2020 I’m referring to the owner of a black Leica in the ‘30s who had it for six months and Already the paint is wearing through! No doubt feedback to Leitz suggested the Black was not durable, and not fitting Leicas image as a “forever” camera. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
250swb Posted July 22, 2020 Share #25 Posted July 22, 2020 1 hour ago, Ambro51 said: I’m referring to the owner of a black Leica in the ‘30s who had it for six months and Already the paint is wearing through! No doubt feedback to Leitz suggested the Black was not durable, and not fitting Leicas image as a “forever” camera. If Leica were intent on selling cameras why would they even want to sell a 'forever camera'? And they proved you wrong by continuing to develop and introduce new models in both chrome and black paint, which suggests there was a market for new models and black paint. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
willeica Posted July 22, 2020 Share #26 Posted July 22, 2020 8 hours ago, 250swb said: If Leica were intent on selling cameras why would they even want to sell a 'forever camera'? And they proved you wrong by continuing to develop and introduce new models in both chrome and black paint, which suggests there was a market for new models and black paint. At first all Leicas were painted black. I have not seen any evidence that owners were displeased with that. When the new more hardwearing chrome cameras were introduced customers considered them to be more desirable (and 'new') and were willing to pay more for them. Black painted cameras more or less disappeared (with some exceptions) until the 1950s when they appeared again in small quantities with M3s, MPs and M2s. These were only a very minor part of production and it was not until the 1970s when the M4-2 and M4-P came along that there was wide scale availability of black models. There is a lot of blather spoken about black ( paint or chrome) v silver chrome cameras. Neither is better, they are just two (or more) different finish types and the choice between them is a matter for personal taste. In my large collection of Leicas I have all types of finishes and no one is better than the other, although I have a particular personal fondness for the black lacquer ( brassed or not brassed) and nickel models produced from 1925 to 1935.. As for a forever camera, yes people bought cameras once with a view to using them for as long as possible and manufacturers tried to fill that need. Today with all the 'I'm number one on the list at my dealer for the latest digital whatsit' nonsense, those days are long since gone. Manufacturers today are very good at exploiting such rampant consumerism. William Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
derleicaman Posted July 23, 2020 Share #27 Posted July 23, 2020 Advertisement (gone after registration) William, I confess to having a soft spot for the original black lacquer and nickel Leicas in my collection. Absolute classics, and they have a presence few others have. I call them my Black Beauties. I also have great reverence for the black and nickel accecories I have to go along with them in their original red Leitz boxes. VIDEO Universal Finder, RASUK Sports Finder, WINTU and all the black and nickel rangefinders for the Leica I. Don’t start me on black paint M cameras, having pushed Leica into making a finish which had become a “lost art” to them with the LHSA Black Paint M6 back in 2000. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BlackBarn Posted July 23, 2020 Share #28 Posted July 23, 2020 On 7/22/2020 at 4:24 AM, wizard said: but let's be honest, brassing is mostly proof of a somewhat careless behaviour of a camera owner or, if due care was in fact exercised, a sign of unsuitable materials used by the manufacturer. And that is precisely the reason why I do not like brassing Ok you might not like brassing for those reasons but really are you suggesting that the brassing on Henri Cartier - Bresson’s camera is proof of his careless behavior or that the cameras which served him for many years were a sign of unsuitable material being used. Stuff simply gets old and tend to show signs of use.....well it certainly appears that way to me the last time I looked in a mirror. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
willeica Posted July 23, 2020 Share #29 Posted July 23, 2020 (edited) The last pre-war black Leicas were black and chrome such as my set here from 1937. They are also very nice, but the black and nickel ones still capture my affections more - see second photo. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! William Edited July 23, 2020 by willeica Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! William ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/311292-observations-on-the-demise-of-the-black-paint-leica/?do=findComment&comment=4013937'>More sharing options...
wizard Posted July 23, 2020 Share #30 Posted July 23, 2020 vor 2 Stunden schrieb BlackBarn: ... are you suggesting that the brassing on Henri Cartier - Bresson’s camera is proof of his careless behavior ... As I had pointed out above, most professionals surely take a different view on cameras. For them, a camera was never meant to be a 'forever' camera. Instead, it was and is simply a tool (presumably tax deductible) which will be replaced if worn out or if there is a better tool available. So why be particularly careful with your tool? Same thing with lorry drivers. The lorry is their tool, and they know it will be replaced every 2, 3 or maybe 5 years. Nobody cares whether the lorry has some dents, scratches or whatever after those 5 years. And the next owner does not care either, because he is buying cheap. So no, I am not suggesting Henri Cartier-Bresson was careless, he just did not care, for the reasons explained. Things have been and mostly still are different with amateurs, and especially with those using Leica or other expensive gear. At least in the film days the idea of many users was to invest in good equipment once, and then use the equipment for as long as possible, due to the significant investment. This implied exercising a good amount of care when using the equipment. And yes, stuff does get old, as do we, but if you are careless, stuff gets older more rapidly (and that does apply to human beings as well). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wizard Posted July 23, 2020 Share #31 Posted July 23, 2020 vor 6 Minuten schrieb willeica: The last pre-war black Leicas were black and chrome such as my set here from 1937. They are also very nice, but the black and nickel ones still capture my affections more - see second photo. William, There certainly is not a lot of brassing on those two cameras, almost none I would say 🙂. Very nice sets! Andy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
willeica Posted July 23, 2020 Share #32 Posted July 23, 2020 11 minutes ago, wizard said: William, There certainly is not a lot of brassing on those two cameras, almost none I would say 🙂. Very nice sets! Andy This one might keep you happy in the brassing stakes, but it is 94 years old, so be kind! Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! William 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! William ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/311292-observations-on-the-demise-of-the-black-paint-leica/?do=findComment&comment=4013951'>More sharing options...
Guest BlackBarn Posted July 23, 2020 Share #33 Posted July 23, 2020 1 hour ago, wizard said: it was and is simply a tool Yes your right or as HC-B put it: ‘The camera for us is a tool, not a pretty mechanical toy.’ I don’t think this means he was careless about maintaining his camera and lenses in top working condition but it suggests he wasn’t preoccupied with maintaining its out of the box prettiness. Some photographers do some don’t and that’s as it should be. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
willeica Posted July 23, 2020 Share #34 Posted July 23, 2020 48 minutes ago, BlackBarn said: Yes your right or as HC-B put it: ‘The camera for us is a tool, not a pretty mechanical toy.’ I don’t think this means he was careless about maintaining his camera and lenses in top working condition but it suggests he wasn’t preoccupied with maintaining its out of the box prettiness. Some photographers do some don’t and that’s as it should be. Did he not bury a camera in the ground for part of WWII? No boutique nonsense for him, although in later life he was very particular about which angle he was photographed from while flying his kite. William Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BlackBarn Posted July 23, 2020 Share #35 Posted July 23, 2020 11 minutes ago, willeica said: Did he not bury a camera in the ground for part of WWII? Yes he did. I think the Leica was dug up in 1943 and it may have been in the ground for a few years as he was a German POW for about three years prior. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wizard Posted July 23, 2020 Share #36 Posted July 23, 2020 vor einer Stunde schrieb BlackBarn: I don’t think this means he was careless about maintaining his camera and lenses in top working condition ... I am with you on that one, but that has nothing to do with brassing. As I was saying, professionals often use their tools differently than non-professionals, resulting in more pronounced and more rapid wear. And that's entirely fine, as they have to earn a living by taking photos and selling them, so they will usually not be bothered by any wear and tear on their cameras. Think about a rally car driver, does he bother about his rally car? No, he wants to win rally events, so the car has to take any kind of use or even abuse needed to achieve this goal. Do you treat your own car like that? I don't think so. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
willeica Posted July 23, 2020 Share #37 Posted July 23, 2020 1 hour ago, wizard said: I am with you on that one, but that has nothing to do with brassing. As I was saying, professionals often use their tools differently than non-professionals, resulting in more pronounced and more rapid wear. And that's entirely fine, as they have to earn a living by taking photos and selling them, so they will usually not be bothered by any wear and tear on their cameras. Think about a rally car driver, does he bother about his rally car? No, he wants to win rally events, so the car has to take any kind of use or even abuse needed to achieve this goal. Do you treat your own car like that? I don't think so. It is the same with some amateurs, but why should it bother you when you don’t buy cameras with signs of wear and tear? I think that you misunderstood my first post about ‘loving brassing’. I enjoy collecting nice Leicas, as you can see, but I don’t treat the Leicas that I use or collect as precious ‘objets d’arts’. Neither do I take photos of them with cups of fancy coffee or any of that nonsense. The photos shown above were taken for the purposes of articles and/or discussions on this forum. I have just done a extensive shoot of some of my collection for a Zoom talk I am giving to LHSA members on 19th August which will be titled ‘Choosing and Using Old Leicas’. The purpose of taking those photos was to share knowledge and information with fellow enthusiasts. William Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wizard Posted July 23, 2020 Share #38 Posted July 23, 2020 vor 35 Minuten schrieb willeica: I enjoy collecting nice Leicas, as you can see, but I don’t treat the Leicas that I use or collect as precious ‘objets d’arts’. Neither do I. And my above response which you quoted was in reply to BlackBarn's post. Although it may not seem that way, I think our positions are not too far apart (that is the problem of discussing in writing only, meeting in person often simplifies matters). If 'loving brassing' is equivalent to enjoying collecting old Leicas, then we are on the same page. My point was, if you want to buy a used Leica, as a user that is, not as a collector, then why would you go after a brassed a.k.a. heavily used one instead of a well kept specimen. I am certainly not overly cautious when using my own equipment, but I do treat it with respect (which involves two aspects, namely respect for the product itself and respect based on the fact that I had to work a certain amount of time to be able to afford that product). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
willeica Posted July 23, 2020 Share #39 Posted July 23, 2020 1 hour ago, wizard said: Neither do I. And my above response which you quoted was in reply to BlackBarn's post. Although it may not seem that way, I think our positions are not too far apart (that is the problem of discussing in writing only, meeting in person often simplifies matters). If 'loving brassing' is equivalent to enjoying collecting old Leicas, then we are on the same page. My point was, if you want to buy a used Leica, as a user that is, not as a collector, then why would you go after a brassed a.k.a. heavily used one instead of a well kept specimen. I am certainly not overly cautious when using my own equipment, but I do treat it with respect (which involves two aspects, namely respect for the product itself and respect based on the fact that I had to work a certain amount of time to be able to afford that product). The 'brassing' is a distraction here. That is not why I would choose a camera to add to my collection. You may be thinking of a camera that I might carry around with me. I own about 40 or 50 Leicas and so most of them rarely get a trip outdoors, but I don't really care one bit what anyone else thinks of me and the camera I am carrying. Likewise when the pandemic has passed ( a bit anyway) and I take out my brass lenses and a wooden camera and throw a black cloth over my head, I still won't care what others think. My brass lenses have some marks on them and the plating has gone in places on them, but they are up to 165 years old and there are definitely no pristine substitutes available. Why do they mean so much to me? Because they were made in Dublin, just a few miles from where I live. William 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pyrogallol Posted July 23, 2020 Share #40 Posted July 23, 2020 When you go out with a wooden camera someone always stops and asks about it. They ask how old it is and probably don’t believe it when I say that I only made it last month. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 2 Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/311292-observations-on-the-demise-of-the-black-paint-leica/?do=findComment&comment=4014343'>More sharing options...
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