Summilux 35 pre-asph @f2.0 vs Summicron 35 latest generation

[01maciel]

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I am thinking to purchase a Summicron 35mm of the latest generation since my Summicron 50v4 I am using for quite a while performs very well. I own a Summilux 35 pre-asph which is soft wide open but at f2.0 it is usable, reasonable sharp  and renders superb results. Has anyone both lenses, the new Summicron 35mm and Summilux 35 pre-asph and can give some advise whether it makes sense to add the Summicron 35mm to existing Lux pre-asph?

[rcusick]

I love the 35mm lux pre-Apsh.  I have an earlier - 1970's version and a later 1990's German version.  There is some improvement in contrast due to better coatings in the later version.  I also can live with / love the lens's quirks - i.e. coma, softness etc.  I love the size of pre-APSH.  That said - I don't like the lack of contrast in older lenses.  While I also don't like high contrast images, I find too much shadow detail or highlight detail is lost in old lenses.  Newer lenses are amazing in their ability to deal with contrast (and micro-contrast).  I find the resolution and sharpness to be better in the modern lenses, but not so much as to swing me one way or another.  For the record - I own two 35mm pre-APSH lenses, a cron V4 and an APSH V2.

[pgk]

I don't currently have the latest Summicron, however I have owned a copy. The pre-asph Summilux never produces the same image 'quality as the Summicron. Its a fabulous lens but as rcusick says both resolution and 'shrapnels' are better in current lenses and the micro-contrast is decidedly better. That all said I own both the pre-asph Summilux and the aspheric pre-FLE version too. I like both. So I would say that it makes sense myself.

[lct]

If by "latest generation" you mean Summicron 35/2 pre-asph v4 (11310) not necessarily. If you mean Summicron 35/2 asph v1 (11879) or v2 (11673) yes possibly in that they have a modern character with more contrast, less flare and more acutance than the Summilux 35/1.4 pre-asph. I don't know if you like that modern character though. 

[Stealth3kpl]

I had both the 35 summicron Asph and the 35 Summicron pre-asph at one stage. I struggled for a long time over which to keep as my two copies were equally sharp (both sharper than the copy of the 35 Summilux pre asph at f2 I once owned). So, to answer your question, I think it makes sense for you to get the 35 Summicron asph in addition to your lux pre asph. In fact, unless you like the rendering of the 35 Summilux pre-asph at f1.4, and especially if you are shooting digital, you could sell the 35 lux pre asph (as I did).

edit: To be clear, I kept the 35 Summicron pre asph mk4 in preference to both the 35 Summicron asph and the 35 summilux pre asph.

Pete

Edited June 11, 2020 by Stealth3kpl

[rcusick]

I forgot to mention I have the Summicron v4 as well... It is MUCH better re contrast than the Summulix pre-Apsh.  The coating also gives a much more "modern" look.  It still not as good as the Summicron APSH but its a nice balance of modern look, performance and function.  I don't know why people fawn over its bokeh of the v4.  The transition from sharpness to out of focus is nice - however.  In short - my answer probably remains the same... get the Summicron apsh for something high performing and different.

[CharlesL]

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There is a problem using the Summicron 50 version iv to anticipate the Summicron 35 ASPH, namely, the former is not ASPH.
The latter lens has an accurate but I think clinical look like many modern lenses. The Summicron 50 versions iv and v are not soft like the Summilux 35 pre-ASPH, but they render surfaces as though you could feel them.

It might seem crazy, but the Summaron 35/3.5 does very well on modern cameras and with the post processing programs we have today. Some samples:
https://www.flickr.com/search/?user_id=41790885%40N08&view_all=1&text=summaron

[lct]

1 hour ago, CharlesL said:

There is a problem using the Summicron 50 version iv to anticipate the Summicron 35 ASPH, namely, the former is not ASPH.
The latter lens has an accurate but I think clinical look like many modern lenses. The Summicron 50 versions iv and v are not soft like the Summilux 35 pre-ASPH, but they render surfaces as though you could feel them.

It might seem crazy, but the Summaron 35/3.5 does very well on modern cameras and with the post processing programs we have today. Some samples:
https://www.flickr.com/search/?user_id=41790885%40N08&view_all=1&text=summaron

The Summicron 50/2 v4 has indeed less acutance that modern asph lenses but not to the point where they would be incompatible, in my experience at least. It matches well some asph lenses like Summicron 28/2 asph or  Elmarit 21/2.8 asph by example and it can be used together with a Summicron 35/2 asph with no problem at all.  As for the Summaron 35/3.5 it is even less contrasty with more flare, which is not a critic at all, but if you don't have compatibility problems with it you should be happy with a Summicron 50 too, even non apo.

 

[Casey Jefferson]

Not directly related but I researched on the 35mm cron asph between V1 and V2 and surprised about the result. V2 seem to have less contrast than the V1 and nobody yet mention about the weird light bleed on samples shown here:

https://www.streetsilhouettes.com/home/2016/7/9/leica-35mm-summicron-asph-i-vs-ii-24mp-vs-42mp-resolution-test

I'm happy to shoot with the V1 and coming from Sony system, lens like the cron asph rendered much less "modern" (imho means "sterile") than e.g. Sonnar 35/2 on RX1R yet they don't render like the classic leica lenses either, judging from many samples I examined. It felt like a very practical lens to shoot and will suit most situation very well.

On a side note though my friend who's a staff at a camera shop, his favourite lens is the pre-asph 35lux and he tried many lenses going in and out of the shop.

[lct]

3 hours ago, Casey Jefferson said:

Not directly related but I researched on the 35mm cron asph between V1 and V2 and surprised about the result. V2 seem to have less contrast than the V1 and nobody yet mention about the weird light bleed on samples shown here:

https://www.streetsilhouettes.com/home/2016/7/9/leica-35mm-summicron-asph-i-vs-ii-24mp-vs-42mp-resolution-test

Different hoods perhaps? I have no experience with the 35/2 asph v2 though.

[01maciel]

Thank you all for taking the time to post your thoughts here.

 

Am 11.6.2020 um 22:30 schrieb lct:

If by "latest generation" you mean Summicron 35/2 pre-asph v4 (11310) not necessarily.

What I meant re 'latest generation' of the Summicron 35/2: https://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-wiki.en/index.php/35mm_f/2_ASPH_Summicron-M - No. 11879-black. I presume this is the version to be more 'clinical'.

 

Am 11.6.2020 um 23:45 schrieb rcusick:

I forgot to mention I have the Summicron v4 as well... It is MUCH better re contrast than the Summulix pre-Apsh. 

35mm f/2 Summicron-M IV is a Walter Mandler design. I guess it is supposed to be more soft and glowing wide open, isn't it? Although I like the glow occationally I cannot appreciate it in all situations.

[Jeff S]

On 6/11/2020 at 5:45 PM, rcusick said:

I don't know why people fawn over its bokeh of the v4.  

Largely because Mike Johnston (now of TOP fame) once called it “the king of bokeh” in a magazine article caption, and the mystique grew.  Later Mike realized that the out of focus blur was nice at smaller apertures and middle distances, but was not so pleasing at large apertures and close-in.  Too late. (Mike was also the first to spell and publish ‘bokeh’ to help people pronounce the proper Japanese term boke.)

Jeff

[adan]

I would say the v.4 50mm Summicron is a "transitional" lens, in-between the 35 Summicron v.4 (also 1979) and the later Solms/"New Wetzlar" designs (Kölsch and Karbe). One of Dr. Mandler's last designs (retired 1985) and foreshadowing more recent lenses, especially the equally transitional Solms 90 Elmarit-M and 28 Elmarit-M (both ca. 1990, non-ASPH). Which is why the 50mm v4/5 has survived so long in the lineup. It more or less goes with everything, within its own limits.

And is very different than the 35 Summilux pre-ASPH (1961) as well.

Thus there is no perfect 35mm Summicron match to the 50 v.4. The 50mm v.5 (v.4 in a new barrel with more modern coatings) would be a bit closer to the ASPH 35mm Summicron.

I.E. on a scale of imaging affinities, from the 35 lux pre-ASPH to the 35 'cron ASPH, the (not necessarily evenly spaced) comparisons would be:

35 Summilux non-ASPH 1961
35 Summicron non-ASPH 1979
50 Summicron v.4 1979
50 Summicron v.5 1994
35 Summilux double-"Aspherical" (extremely rare and expensive) 1990
35 Summilux ASPH 1994
35 Summicron ASPH 1997

...acquiring more and more clarity, contrast (depending on aperture used) and magenta coloring as one descends.

Note that I tossed in a couple of ringers there - the 35mm Summilux Aspherical/ASPH lenses. Which due to the strain of achieving f/1.4 and bending 2x the light, even with aspheric elements, are still a bit softer and gentler than the 35mm Summicron ASPH (while a massive step up from the old non-ASPH Summilux). And thus might be the closest relative to your 50 v.4 in terms of look.

 

[lct]

3 hours ago, 01maciel said:

Thank you all for taking the time to post your thoughts here.

 

What I meant re 'latest generation' of the Summicron 35/2: https://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-wiki.en/index.php/35mm_f/2_ASPH_Summicron-M - No. 11879-black. I presume this is the version to be more 'clinical'.

 

35mm f/2 Summicron-M IV is a Walter Mandler design. I guess it is supposed to be more soft and glowing wide open, isn't it? Although I like the glow occationally I cannot appreciate it in all situations.

If by glow you mean halos around highlights, i haven't noticed that out of the Summicron 35/2 v4. But it has indeed less sharpness (acutance) at f/2 than the Summicron 35/2 asph v1 you are referring to. Great for portraits if you don't want to show the skin imperfections of your models too much. Now the 35/2 v4 is not a low contrast lens as far as macro contrast is concerned. Matches very well the Summicron 50/2 v4. I've been using those two lenses for 20+ years and to me at least, it is pretty well the "perfect match" adan was referring to above. Same feeling more or less about the Summicron 35/2 asph v1 and the Summicron 50/2 apo. Leica knows a bit about photography after all .

[evikne]

4 hours ago, 01maciel said:

What I meant re 'latest generation' of the Summicron 35/2: https://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-wiki.en/index.php/35mm_f/2_ASPH_Summicron-M - No. 11879-black. I presume this is the version to be more 'clinical'.

The very latest version of the 35 Summicron-M is no. 11673-4 from 2016, including 11 aperture blades vs. 8 in the previous model. For some reason it is not listed in the Leica Wiki yet.

[evikne]

On 6/11/2020 at 8:13 PM, 01maciel said:

I am thinking to purchase a Summicron 35mm of the latest generation since my Summicron 50v4 I am using for quite a while performs very well. I own a Summilux 35 pre-asph which is soft wide open but at f2.0 it is usable, reasonable sharp  and renders superb results. Has anyone both lenses, the new Summicron 35mm and Summilux 35 pre-asph and can give some advise whether it makes sense to add the Summicron 35mm to existing Lux pre-asph?

What do you want to achieve with the new 35mm? Should it match the rendering of your 50/2 v.4 as closely as possible? Or should it just be at the "opposite end" of your 35 Summilux pre-ASPH? Anyway, I think it sounds like a good idea to combine new and old lens designs.

[01maciel]

Thanks all for your input. It helps me get the ducks in a row. But first things first. I have tested the Summilux 35 pre-asph at f2 to f8 for a while. Some of these pictures you'll find here:

https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/310192-barnacks-monthly-for-june-2020-is-something-beginning-with-p/?do=findComment&comment=3995768

https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/310192-barnacks-monthly-for-june-2020-is-something-beginning-with-p/page/54/?tab=comments#comment-3991686

https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/310192-barnacks-monthly-for-june-2020-is-something-beginning-with-p/?do=findComment&comment=3991674

https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/300714-post-an-image-relating-to-the-previous-one/?do=findComment&comment=3990523

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In conclusion, the Summilux 35 pre-asph meets my expectations in contrast, colours and sharpness starting from f2 to f8. Not bad for such an old lens. I am deeply impressed by the performance. Of course, it might be room for improvements - e.g. a Summicron - but thats not my cup of tea for the moment. Long story short: I don't need/want a Summicron 35 yet.
As I am a great fan of speedy lenses I kept an eye out for a Noctilux. It took me some time but in the end I found a decent version-4 lens in my favorite foto store on the internet. It is a collectors item, as new. ETA is tomorrow, Saturday and I can't wait to see the postman ring the door bell. Let's see how it goes.🔔

[01maciel]

One more at f2

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