Advice in Buying a MM9?

[Herr Barnack]

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38 minutes ago, setuporg said:

M10M is not GAS, it's the greatest M ever made.  The sooner you get it, the longer you'll have to use it before the next one comes out!:)

Thanks for reminding me of that. 

As I get closer to getting my $8700+ change together (M10M + #24018 hand grip) for my purchase, I have started to get a bit wobbly kneed at the prospect of coughing up that aneurysm inducing  sum.  

The Leica passion is (in economic considerations) a full contact sport; it is most decidedly not for the faint of heart or faint of wallet - even though the latter is a reasonably good description for me.  I suppose what I lack in Balboas, I readily make up for in testicular fortitude when it comes to purchasing Leica gear (much to my wife's chagrin 😳).

Edited June 16, 2020 by Herr Barnack

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[Stef63]

1 hour ago, Sjz said:

Now am looking at M10M plus Summilux 28mm as I believe it works brilliantly on all three.  Time to put my card back in my wallet and take a step back.  This has become GAS....

I’ve owned the 3 generations of Monochrom M’s, and still have the M10M.  It is by a large, a very large margin the better camera of the three.  Forget the ccd nostalgia.  It used to be nice in it’s time but if you want or feel the desire to reproduce the characteristics of photography of the past you should invest in old lenses, instead of old (digital) camera’s.

And given the advantage of high iso of the M10M (a first for Leica M and a real breakthrough) a fast wide like the 28lux is not necessary on the M10M.  In low light situations a cron or even elmarit is more that sufficient given that the camera will be able to produce fine results at 6400 iso or even beyond.

My 2c 😀 for what they are worth. 

Edited June 16, 2020 by Stef63

[setuporg]

On 6/16/2020 at 1:34 PM, Stef63 said:

should invest in old lenses

I have some, the 1.0 Noct, the 75mm Lux.  They look amazing on all MMs.

On 6/16/2020 at 1:34 PM, Stef63 said:

a fast wide like the 28lux is not necessary on the M10M

But I prefer a shallow DOF so all of the fast lenses make great sense still.

[Sjz]

I am fairly sure you all know you are not helping me talk myself out of it. 

The M10M with 28 ‘Lux and M to L adapter adds up to a significant amount of money, at least for me 😞  I have it sitting in a basket, waiting for the day I have that extra glass of wine.  On the plus side, only the lens is immediately available and that is helping me resist.

The ‘Lux was my choice as I intend using it on my SL2 and CL, I was pleased to hear Leica Miami rave about its performance on the SL at the end of their great video on M Lens.   (I really enjoy that series).

The M is an itch I want to scratch, Monochrom is an itch I want to scratch......  damn 

[Jeff S]

5 hours ago, Sjz said:

I was pleased to hear Leica Miami rave about its performance on the SL at the end of their great video on M Lens.   (I really enjoy that series).

 

You (GAS sufferers) are their target audience.  The sessions are informative and entertaining, but great marketing at the core, especially in the Covid environment. I watch from a safe distance.

Jeff

[Guest BlackBarn]

It’s not clear why you want to buy a Mono. I’m assuming you have either tried the SL2 and CL in b/w mode or converting to b/w in PP and that is insufficient in some way compared to the perceived benefits of having one of the Mono’s....... or its simply it would be a ‘nice thing to have’.
 

If it’s ‘a nice thing to have’ and  you want to spend thoughtfully, then I would put my emphasis on acquiring  M lens/es while using the SL2/CL b/w option and just buy a good MM or 246 later when the stars are better aligned.  If it’s a ‘must have’ because you find that your interest is developing towards B/W then I would consider keeping the CL for colour/travel  and selling the SL2 and buying the M10M ( if available) + whatever M lens.

[Sjz]

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21 hours ago, BlackBarn said:

It’s not clear why you want to buy a Mono. I’m assuming you have either tried the SL2 and CL in b/w mode or converting to b/w in PP and that is insufficient in some way compared to the perceived benefits of having one of the Mono’s....... or its simply it would be a ‘nice thing to have’.
 

If it’s ‘a nice thing to have’ and  you want to spend thoughtfully, then I would put my emphasis on acquiring  M lens/es while using the SL2/CL b/w option and just buy a good MM or 246 later when the stars are better aligned.  If it’s a ‘must have’ because you find that your interest is developing towards B/W then I would consider keeping the CL for colour/travel  and selling the SL2 and buying the M10M ( if available) + whatever M lens.

Hi,

Thank you for taking the time to respond and the advice is very good.
 

The desire for a Monochrom started with a desire to learn how to use an M, essentially to have that M experience.  I really enjoy my SL2 and CL and I have no desire to replace either of them.  My thinking then led me towards the Monochrom, to add a new experience, as opposed to replacing an existing one.  The subsequent thoughts then fell like domino toppling.  I would need a lens for the M, that lens should work on the SL2 and the CL, I went through the original Monochrom photo thread and was inspired.  
 

I do convert colour to monochrome, in fact I enjoy the process of moving the colour sliders (C1) and the subsequent effect they have on the monochrome images.  I realise that is not possible on a monochrome raw file and those effects can be achieved through coloured filters on the lens at the time of taking the photograph, that challenge appeals.  The main thought I started with was M9M with a CV 21, 1.4.  Over time this morphed into a M10M and M28 ‘Lux.  Very very different propositions and price points.

 

The short answer is I want to enjoy my photography, have different experiences, learn and learn some more.

 

i still think the original idea is a fairly good one,  a M9M and perhaps swapping the CV 21 Nokton for the M28 ‘Lux as it should shine on the M9M, the SL2 and the CL.

 

i like the thought of getting the lens now and the camera later, having said that there appears to be a good M9M becoming available July(ish).

[Peter_S]

The reality is that all three (M9M, M246, M10M) are fantastic cameras. I had a loaner M246, now own an M9M. Both are great.
Why not get an M9M for now, and see how you get along with it. Using a B/W camera is bit of a learning curve, and you can go in circles asking folks that they think. Only you can find out, and I am not sure I would spend the money on an M10M before knowing it is the right tool. I for my part have pretty much stopped converting color images to B/W, it feels a bit cumbersome and I have a hard time getting the same effect (if so desired) as a dedicated use of orange or yellow filters on the Monochrom.
When it comes to M246 vs M9M... I got a good deal on an M9M, so it was simply an economic thing. The M246 is sweet. The two reasons I would prefer it are live view and a bit more room to crop to 3:4 and 6:7 formats.
In terms of sensor replacement (or not) - when looking at one during my hunt, I just called Leica. 10 minutes later I knew what the story was.

Edited June 19, 2020 by Peter_S

[Anakronox]

11 hours ago, Peter_S said:

Why not get an M9M for now, and see how you get along with it. Using a B/W camera is bit of a learning curve, and you can go in circles asking folks that they think. Only you can find out, and I am not sure I would spend the money on an M10M before knowing it is the right tool.

This advice is solid.  I was curious about the Monochrom line and initially picked up a used M9M with a new sensor.  I used it for a month and loved it, but the sensor had 2 rows of dead pixels which Leica service could not remap.  So back to B&H it went (they were very accommodating), but I sincerely missed having the monochrome shooting experience and I wasn’t enjoying photography as much.  After a month or more without it, I had already planned a short vacation to Berlin and after speaking to the team at Meister Kamera multiple times, a M10M became available just a few days before my trip.  I locked in my reservation and haven’t looked back since.  But first, I did determine that I wanted that creative constraints of monochrome photography.

[Sjz]

On 6/20/2020 at 7:39 AM, Anakronox said:

This advice is solid.  I was curious about the Monochrom line and initially picked up a used M9M with a new sensor.  I used it for a month and loved it, but the sensor had 2 rows of dead pixels which Leica service could not remap.  So back to B&H it went (they were very accommodating), but I sincerely missed having the monochrome shooting experience and I wasn’t enjoying photography as much.  After a month or more without it, I had already planned a short vacation to Berlin and after speaking to the team at Meister Kamera multiple times, a M10M became available just a few days before my trip.  I locked in my reservation and haven’t looked back since.  But first, I did determine that I wanted that creative constraints of monochrome photography.

Hi,

Hope you don’t mind me asking, did you already use an M?

[Anakronox]

44 minutes ago, Sjz said:

Hi,

Hope you don’t mind me asking, did you already use an M?

I did.  I’d been shooting with an M10 for 4 months or so when I went for the M9M. 

Edited June 22, 2020 by Anakronox

[Sjz]

Part of the way there.....

’lux 28 (and M-L Mount adapter) ordered.  Step 1 Complete.  Was difficult to choose between the 28 ‘lux or the 50 APO, good examples of both became available at the same time.

I wanted the ‘lux as opposed to the SE as I want to use it on my CL and SL2 as well as the Monochrom, therefore light gathering matters for me.

• The M9M I found, still had the original sensor so I decided against that.  Another one (with a replaced sensor) may become available soon.
• The 246 is still available at a sensible price.
• The M10-P has gone.
• A M10M has appeared (full price funnily enough).

I just wanted to give an update after the time people put into giving solid advice.

[Anakronox]

On 7/2/2020 at 10:11 PM, Sjz said:

Part of the way there.....

’lux 28 (and M-L Mount adapter) ordered.  Step 1 Complete.  Was difficult to choose between the 28 ‘lux or the 50 APO, good examples of both became available at the same time.

I wanted the ‘lux as opposed to the SE as I want to use it on my CL and SL2 as well as the Monochrom, therefore light gathering matters for me.

• The M9M I found, still had the original sensor so I decided against that.  Another one (with a replaced sensor) may become available soon.
• The 246 is still available at a sensible price.
• The M10-P has gone.
• A M10M has appeared (full price funnily enough).

I just wanted to give an update after the time people put into giving solid advice.

2 immediate thoughts that may help (or hinder - sorry if so) your decision:

1. The M246 has better battery life, but a worse optional EVF
2. The M10M has worse battery life, but a better optional EVF

These are separate from the other considerations of better high-ISO performance and megapixel count on the M10M.  The M246 is still a great camera, though.  

[Sjz]

1 hour ago, Anakronox said:

2 immediate thoughts that may help (or hinder - sorry if so) your decision:

1. The M246 has better battery life, but a worse optional EVF
2. The M10M has worse battery life, but a better optional EVF

These are separate from the other considerations of better high-ISO performance and megapixel count on the M10M.  The M246 is still a great camera, though.  

Hi,

Thank you, I am always happy to carry an extra battery in my pocket, so power should not be an issue. 

I did load up the 'cart' with the optional EVF and Spare Battery as well as the M10M (and on another site, yellow, orange and red filters of the less common filter size (49) for the 'lux 28 M). 

Aarrgghh, why can I not put the idea aside, or buy it?

🙂 sjz

[tom.w.bn]

From time to time a Monochrom crosses my mind and I look for a M9M. And every time I have to remind myself that I had the M9 not very long and replaced it with an M240 mainly  because of the shutter and the display. If I want to experience a Monochrom then for me it would probably be the M246. I personally think that the prices for a M9M with replaced sensor is too high in comparison with a M246 if you consider the age of the camera.

[tom.w.bn]

Am 18.6.2020 um 19:21 schrieb BlackBarn:

It’s not clear why you want to buy a Mono. I’m assuming you have either tried the SL2 and CL in b/w mode or converting to b/w in PP and that is insufficient in some way compared to the perceived benefits of having one of the Mono’s....... or its simply it would be a ‘nice thing to have’.
 

I think the problem is that you have to own one to really find out if the pure Monochrom is a step ahead compared to b/w conversion.

[Anakronox]

13 minutes ago, tom.w.bn said:

I think the problem is that you have to own one to really find out if the pure Monochrom is a step ahead compared to b/w conversion.

Or talk to someone who shoots both.  The pure monochrome experience is very much different and absolutely results in better quality images than a color to b/w conversion.  To get the most out of a Monochrom requires the use of color filters.  The advantage of a color to b/w conversion is that you can tweak the color channels prior to converting, but the lack of a bayer filter on the Monochroms results in effectively higher resolution photos.

It's really up to you, the user if you want to trade the ability to shoot color with a camera.  For me at least, it is a creative contstraint that is more rewarding than just seeing a mediocre color image and throwing it into SilverEfx to make it good.

[tom.w.bn]

vor 22 Minuten schrieb Anakronox:

Or talk to someone who shoots both.  The pure monochrome experience is very much different and absolutely results in better quality images than a color to b/w conversion.  To get the most out of a Monochrom requires the use of color filters.  The advantage of a color to b/w conversion is that you can tweak the color channels prior to converting, but the lack of a bayer filter on the Monochroms results in effectively higher resolution photos.

It's really up to you, the user if you want to trade the ability to shoot color with a camera.  For me at least, it is a creative contstraint that is more rewarding than just seeing a mediocre color image and throwing it into SilverEfx to make it good.

This is highly subjective. There are people who think it's dramatically different and there people who tried it and it's too sublte for them to invest in this. When I travel, I normally have film (b/w) and digital with me. Quite often the b/w conversion of the digital files does not come close to the film images, but there are situations where the conversion is really close. When I look at the Monochrom sample images here I have no clue, in which cases a careful b/w conversion would be as close and how much the gained resolution is really noticeable. Talking with someone does not help, you have to experience it yourself.

The commitment to a b/w only workflow is even something different.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[Sjz]

1 hour ago, tom.w.bn said:

..........

Talking with someone does not help, you have to experience it yourself.

The commitment to a b/w only workflow is even something different.

2 hours ago, Anakronox said:

Or talk to someone who shoots both.  The pure monochrome experience is very much different and absolutely results in better quality images than a color to b/w conversion.  To get the most out of a Monochrom requires the use of color filters.  The advantage of a color to b/w conversion is that you can tweak the color channels prior to converting, but the lack of a bayer filter on the Monochroms results in effectively higher resolution photos.

It's really up to you, the user if you want to trade the ability to shoot color with a camera.  For me at least, it is a creative contstraint that is more rewarding than just seeing a mediocre color image and throwing it into SilverEfx to make it good.

Any recommended ‘how to’ b+w books?   When I started, many years ago, I had a couple of books which taught me the basics then more advanced techniques.

Part of the appeal of the Mono is learning how to get what I visualise into a b+w image.  Not that I claim to have mastered colour.

When I say I enjoy learning, it is not so much about how to use a specific camera, but how to get the most out of b+w, I guess older books as b+w is a bit niche now.

The largest piece of advice I have picked up about mono is ‘protect the highlights’, I do that for colour too.  Practice will teach me the level of effects the filters create, the high level being Red filters for dramatic sky, Orange for more subtlety than red, with Yellow for subtle boosts.  Polarising and nds work just the same as for colour.

I enjoyed Oz Yilmaz’s review of the Mono on the YouTube channel Leica Review.  Sadly his last couple of videos have been taken down, it was great to hear that alternative perspective so passionately expressed.

[Guest BlackBarn]

3 minutes ago, tom.w.bn said:

This is highly subjective.....The commitment to a b/w only workflow is even something different.

 

1 hour ago, tom.w.bn said:

I think the problem is that you have to own one to really find out if the pure Monochrom is a step ahead compared to b/w conversion.

Yes I agree and also the decision to which one of the 3M models to choose regardless of price.

However , I suggest  that with using the  current PP tools and converting colour to b/w from cameras like the SL2 and others, it would be very difficult with photos - used on the social format - to tell the difference between the pure mono and the colour conversion. I would also suggest that learning to maximize a Mono camera - therefore deciding if the mono is a step ahead - takes time so commitment is necessary.