50/.95 to buy or not to buy

[01maciel]

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Whats that rumour about a new TTartisan 50mm .95 with Leica M-mount to be delivered in the next couple of weeks? It scares me that a chinese brand has the technology, knowledge and the financial power to design and to deliver this piece of hi-tec. The sample photos don't look too bad. But what's coming next? My presumption what happens next:
Soon to be expected: an improved v2, another v3 and then there is a new market leader in far east in terms of lenses. The game has already been played by the Japanese photo and watch industry some decades ago. The impact created a massive ripple in the industrial western world.

Interesting to read the first user experience or review in the LUF.

 

[Guest]

Beware the sleeping giant in the east.

I can’t imagine what anyone is scared about.If the Chinese produce a 50mm 0.95 lens for half the price of a Leica original and it is just as good,I would definitly consider buying it. But the devil is in the detail ie “just as good” . Performance/ Build Quality/ 2nd hand value when it is sold/Factory backup in the event of any problems etc etc.

[Arrow]

Canon already made a 50 0.95 lens in 1961,  Schneider Kreuznach the Xenon 50 0.95 in 1970.There were some maker´s cine lenses of such kind around. It took Leica quite a while to come up with the decision to launch one in 2008 to set it apart from its own existing 1.0 design. Meanwhile it is a benchmark. Many makers started to make one. There is one by Zenith, Meyer Optics, Zhongi Mitakon, ... well, and now TT Artisan. I see them all as different interpretations of the 50 0.95 lens theme. However, 0.95 is only a number without further meaning or quality. The proof is in the device and what you can do with it, next to other quality features. 

I am not a lens technician. What is the 0.95 speed defined by in relation to the focal lengths? The front lens diameter? Is it thus simply possible to make a 0.95 lens by using i.e. perspex?

Edited April 14, 2020 by Arrow

[a5m]

1 hour ago, Arrow said:

I am not a lens technician. What is the 0.95 speed defined by in relation to the focal lengths? The front lens diameter? Is it thus simply possible to make a 0.95 lens by using i.e. perspex?

The ratio of focal length to diameter of max aperture opening.

[Arrow]

7 minutes ago, a5m said:

The ratio of focal length to diameter of max aperture opening.

So, it is no indicator for actual light transmission?

[jaeger]

5 minutes ago, Arrow said:

So, it is no indicator for actual light transmission?

The T stop value, I can't find it.  I bet it's about T1.2

[a5m]

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21 minutes ago, Arrow said:

So, it is no indicator for actual light transmission?

That would be the T Stop, which is the actual measurement of how much light is getting through. F Stop is a theoretical measurement, but it's still a good indicator for light transmission. T stop values tend to be lower, but by how much varies from lens to lens. Usually not more than a whole stop, but typically more like 1/2 or so.

Edited April 14, 2020 by a5m

[Arrow]

Are there any records on the actual T stop value of the Noctilux 0.95? 

[a5m]

3 minutes ago, Arrow said:

Are there any records on the actual T stop value of the Noctilux 0.95? 

I was looking that up haha. All I found so far is according to Ming Thein it's about T1.2, which sounds about right:

https://blog.mingthein.com/2012/03/26/the-confusion-between-t-stops-and-f-stops/#comment-635

[Arrow]

50 minutes ago, a5m said:

I was looking that up haha. All I found so far is according to Ming Thein it's about T1.2, which sounds about right:

https://blog.mingthein.com/2012/03/26/the-confusion-between-t-stops-and-f-stops/#comment-635

Interesting text. Does not give a quote for the Nocti´s T factor. However, it surely comes down to Dr. Karbe´s maths, Valyrian glass, coatings, and precision manufacturing. 

 

Edited April 14, 2020 by Arrow

[farnz]

2 hours ago, Arrow said:

However, it surely comes down to Dr. Karbe´s maths, Valyrian glass, coatings, and precision manufacturing. 

Actually it comes down to precision testing of the lens's transmissibility using an integrated sphere rather than Peter Karbe's excellent maths and it's the same for all lenses.  Since f/stops are calculated, it's fine to calculate an f/stop from a measured T-stop but it doesn't work the other way around owing to the real amount of radiant energy absorption of the lens elements and the reflectivity of their coatings, which both hinder the passage of light through a lens and therefore its transmissibility.

Pete.

[Arrow]

20 minutes ago, farnz said:

Actually it comes down to precision testing of the lens's transmissibility using an integrated sphere rather than Peter Karbe's excellent maths and it's the same for all lenses.  Since f/stops are calculated, it's fine to calculate an f/stop from a measured T-stop but it doesn't work the other way around owing to the real amount of radiant energy absorption of the lens elements and the reflectivity of their coatings, which both hinder the passage of light through a lens and therefore its transmissibility.

Pete.

Hm, I will stay with the Noctilux then 😇

[pgk]

6 hours ago, BrianP said:

Beware the sleeping giant in the east.

I can’t imagine what anyone is scared about.If the Chinese produce a 50mm 0.95 lens for half the price of a Leica original and it is just as good,I would definitly consider buying it. But the devil is in the detail ie “just as good” . Performance/ Build Quality/ 2nd hand value when it is sold/Factory backup in the event of any problems etc etc.

Computerised lens design makes it a lot easier to design lenses today, and to high specification for their purpose too. However, optical and mechanical design and accurate assembly also need to be factored in. Designing the mechanics in such a way that the lens can be accurately adjusted and its optical components can be fitted and optimised through adjustments is not all that easy. And quality control during assembly relies on checking and rechecking alignments and precise locations of optics and mechanics. This takes time an is thus a costly part of the lens build process. A friend who is a lens designer tells me that this part of production is the one that can substantially increase costs. So good lens designs may not translate into high quality production lenses depending on the amount of time and effort put into production of the lens. There are good reasons for some lenses being expensive and producing a budget version of a highly specified lens usually means that reducing costs somewhere. My experience (admittedly small) is that its can be in the QC area and a simplified mechanical design.

[Adam Bonn]

I own the 7artisans F1.1 (yes TTartisans are a different company, but possibly share manufacture) and 50mm lux

FWIW I think it's  a little like watches... compare a £200 watch to a £7000 one from a distance and you'll struggle to see the difference (ie like sharing Noct vs TTa 0.95 pics on facebook 😉)

But get them both up close and you'll see and feel the differences between the two watches.... 

Are those differences worth the cost?

Well that depends on many things really... the depth of the buyers pockets, the frequency one simply has to have 0.95... 

For a hunch - the TTa 0.95 will be like their 35/1.4 (no experience... was tempted... read the reviews... decided to bench that idea*), and the 35/1.4 reviews amounted too = reasonable in the centre, less so at the sides. some strange 'bokeh', maybe the lens markings won't line up, maybe it'll turn past infinity

About what you'd expect from the price point IMO

 

*largely 'cos I got the 50mm 7artisans to scratch my fast fifty itch and because I couldn't afford a lux... 12 months afterwards I bought the lux... but a 35 lux FLE is waaay outta budget, so I decided not open pandora's box on that one!!

 

[01maciel]

Anyone seen a price tag on this lens? Probably not more than 3000€ - my humble guess

[Pyrogallol]

On 4/14/2020 at 8:45 PM, Adam Bonn said:

I own the 7artisans F1.1 (yes TTartisans are a different company, but possibly share manufacture) and 50mm lux

FWIW I think it's  a little like watches... compare a £200 watch to a £7000 one from a distance and you'll struggle to see the difference (ie like sharing Noct vs TTa 0.95 pics on facebook 😉)

But get them both up close and you'll see and feel the differences between the two watches.... 

Are those differences worth the cost?

Well that depends on many things really... the depth of the buyers pockets, the frequency one simply has to have 0.95... 

For a hunch - the TTa 0.95 will be like their 35/1.4 (no experience... was tempted... read the reviews... decided to bench that idea*), and the 35/1.4 reviews amounted too = reasonable in the centre, less so at the sides. some strange 'bokeh', maybe the lens markings won't line up, maybe it'll turn past infinity

About what you'd expect from the price point IMO

 

*largely 'cos I got the 50mm 7artisans to scratch my fast fifty itch and because I couldn't afford a lux... 12 months afterwards I bought the lux... but a 35 lux FLE is waaay outta budget, so I decided not open pandora's box on that one!!

 

I wore a Rolex everyday for 40+ years, then sold it for a nice profit, even taking inflation into account.

You won’t do that with a Chinese copy of a Noctilux, a digital camera or a cheap watch.

[Adam Bonn]

49 minutes ago, Pyrogallol said:

I wore a Rolex everyday for 40+ years, then sold it for a nice profit, even taking inflation into account.

You won’t do that with a Chinese copy of a Noctilux, a digital camera or a cheap watch.

Well yeah totally! That’s why I always smile when I read “don’t buy the fuji/sony buy the leica, you don’t lose money on an M” (you’ll lose a lot more money buying a new digital M and selling it some years later)

I digress..

The point I was making is that when you compare (say) a Rolex to (say) a microbrand watch you’ll see where the extra money went on the Rolex. Whether that extra money for the build quality, finesse and worldwide dealer support is worth it or not is down to the consumer, after all both tell the time.
 

The same will be true with 7/TTartisans lenses 

 

The Rolex I bought 8 years ago is worth about 20% more than I paid for it brand new. 
 

It’s not for sale though! I’m not really a collector more of a user.

 

I think s/he who wishes to profit from investment might be better served away from watches and cameras.

[Gelatino]

M10   EchtNoctilux 0,95😜

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[Gelatino]

Actually I used the Facom for blocking /unblocking the bolt and the Rondy only to hold the counterbolt.

The Facom is 12- points, the Rondy 6-points, and see pict.3 to compare how the pipes wrench are open.

My point is : to do the job get the appropriate tool. The Rondy is THE one for maintaining the counterbolt, with good Q/P ratio (very low P).

To answer the question, both hopefully can screw/unscrew, but the Facom is more "comfortable", efficient (a little bit longer?), still good looking, inspiring more confidence.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[SocialKonstruct]

On 4/14/2020 at 5:49 AM, 01maciel said:

Whats that rumour about a new TTartisan 50mm .95 with Leica M-mount to be delivered in the next couple of weeks? It scares me that a chinese brand has the technology, knowledge and the financial power to design and to deliver this piece of hi-tec. The sample photos don't look too bad. But what's coming next? My presumption what happens next:
Soon to be expected: an improved v2, another v3 and then there is a new market leader in far east in terms of lenses. The game has already been played by the Japanese photo and watch industry some decades ago. The impact created a massive ripple in the industrial western world.

Interesting to read the first user experience or review in the LUF.

 

I own one and it looks better than any Nikon or Canon lens I own so far.

https://www.instagram.com/p/B_C7dTqFY_A/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

Edited April 16, 2020 by SocialKonstruct