Voigtlander 40/ 1.4 focus shift

[fabianoliver]

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Hello.

This days i've bought a used, mint condition Nokton 40/1.4 MC.

 Nice lens for the price.

The problem that i found is the focus shift.

Here some examples with leica M8, focus at 0.9 mts.

I've focused the 150 mark in the carpenter meter.

At f1.4 and f2 is ok, at 2.8 it shift back 

Here some 100% crops. Later i'll made another test with far focus.

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Edited April 4, 2020 by fabianoliver

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[lct]

Well-documented issue on rangefinders but not a problem on mirrorless of course.

[fabianoliver]

You are right ICT.

This copy, or this lenses seem to be ok at 1.4 and 2, then...shift.

On the 1.5 mt test, the focus shift back too, i'll take care on portraits, and not to focus the eye!

Here 1.5 mt test

 

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[BradS]

This is horrible. Is it possible that this one needs to be calibrated or are the all like this?

[AceVentura1986]

I own the Nokton 35mm f/1.4 and have similar experiences. I have found, however, that focus shift manifests itself between f/2 and f/5.6, but only at close range say within 2 meters. Now, both f/2 and f/5.6 are usable but the apertures between are not, at least not within 2 meters. This is really less of an issue than it would seem at first blush because on a FF camera, 35mm is really not an up close lens, like say a 50mm might be. In the uses which a 35 excels in, more scenic work, for example, the subject is far enough removed that focus shift isn’t an issue. Now, on an M8 that’s a different story as it is used more as a normal lens in that case. When I used it on my M8 years ago I just never shot at f/2.8 or f/4. 

[mike3996]

On 4/5/2020 at 5:55 AM, BradS said:

This is horrible. Is it possible that this one needs to be calibrated or are the all like this?

All are like this. It is part of the optical design and the associated compromises. You don't want it, seek a model  that doesn't exhibit the shift. Some people are persistent enough to learn to correct the focus error by hand but it's not everyone's idea of a good time.

 

 

Edited April 6, 2020 by mike3996

[pippy]

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1 hour ago, mike3996 said:

All are like this. It is part of the optical design and the associated compromises...

I picked-up the 40mm f1.4 when I first bought my M8.2 as I wanted something 50mm-ish and fast-ish.

I used it for a year or two without noticing anything untowards but started reading more and more about the horrible focus-shift so, much as the OP has done, set up a proper test at different distances / f-stops and my results were broadly similar to the observations mentioned by AceVentura above. The reason I hadn't spotted anything untoward earlier is for the same reasons, too; used up-close I would shoot f1.4 / f2 so the focus-shift wasn't an issue. Used outdoors for 'regular' type stuff I'd be down around f8 so Dof took care of any funny-business.

Oddly enough it's still one of my favourite general-purpose lenses.

Philip.

EDIT ; Just for fits'n'giggles here's one of the very first frames I snapped specifically to see (a) whether the lens was sharp wide-open and (b) to see if my eyesight was still good enough to use a r/f!. Full-frame image and a 100% crop. Catchlights were the focus-point and distance was approx 2m;

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Edited April 6, 2020 by pippy

[mike3996]

4 hours ago, pippy said:

The reason I hadn't spotted anything untoward earlier is for the same reasons, too; used up-close I would shoot f1.4 / f2 so the focus-shift wasn't an issue. Used outdoors for 'regular' type stuff I'd be down around f8 so Dof took care of any funny-business.

People who say their copy won't show focus shift are just people very content with their pictures, they don't spend afternoons pixel peeping the shots. A very good place to be indeed! 👍

A little softness never killed a good photograph.

[pippy]

58 minutes ago, mike3996 said:

...A little softness never killed a good photograph...

 

I'm sure some of the elder ladies of Hollywood - and Thambar users - would toast that sentiment with their finest vintage Champagne!

I never expected APO-sharpness at f1.4 and actually quite like both the way it renders close-up subjects wide-open and also the rather pronounced vignetting at the same aperture! Once stopped-down it performs really well indeed - but then again I'm not one who prints-out at 60"x40"...

Philip.

 

Edited April 6, 2020 by pippy

[fotomas]

Pretty much the same with mine. But it has on addition a back-focus with the OVF. 

The focus-distance is about 1,35 m. I just chose the 90 cm-mark because it was suitable and better to see.

f 1,4 OVF

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f 1,4 with EVF

f 2,0

f 2,8

f 4,0

f 5,6

f 8,0

Wonder if the VC 1,2 / 40 mm might be better in this?

[pippy]

I believe I'm correct in saying that all the newer releases from Voigtlander are much less prone to focus shift. In fact I think this is one of the main reasons why many of the lenses were re-engineered / replaced by the newer models in the first place.

Before you decide to abandon the lens, however, I'd suggesst giving it a chance in real-world shooting situations where it (IMHO) is actually a fine performer.

Philip.

[pippy]

6 hours ago, fotomas said:

Pretty much the same with mine. But it has on addition a back-focus with the OVF. 

The focus-distance is about 1,35 m. I just chose the 90 cm-mark because it was suitable and better to see.

Wonder if the VC 1,2 / 40 mm might be better in this?

Well, it might have less focus-variation if that's what you mean?

Just FYI having been somewhat surprised by the results which the 40mm f1.4 Nokton test delivered I carried-out similar - but mainly 'close-to-mid-range-distance' - tests on a further 10 M-mount lenses, from three different manufacturers (and with some duplication of focal-lengths) from 28mm to 90mm, which were to hand. The 'least-affected' tended to be (no surprise) the 'digital-age' Leica lenses where there was no real shift worth mentioning. Almost all the others displayed some sort of shift including my absolute favourite lens, the v4 50mm Summmicron(*), so my advice (yet again) would be to not expect perfection; use lenses in 'real-life' and evaluate when viewing processed images rather than test-bench images of tape-measures.

Believe me; I've spent wasted so much of my own time and effort to try to understand these things that unless I notice that a lens is really screwed-up I should just go with what it can do and if I don't like what it can do - and it has happened twice in the last two years - I'll send it back for a refund.

Depending on lighting / subject matter the way the Nokton works at f1.4 is, sometimes, quite magical.

Philip.

(*) The optical formula for the Walter Mandler designed v4 / v5 50mm Summicrons was considered to be so good that it remained unchanged for 34 years!

 

Edited April 7, 2020 by pippy

[TomB_tx]

I agree with Philip: I’ve checked a lot of well known lenses for focus shift in recent years, and every fast lens I’ve checked carefully has shown some amount of shift stopping from wide open. DAG noted that when I asked him to calibrate focus on a couple of 50 Summicrons from the 50s-60s. He noted the design had shift, so Leica calibrated them at 2.8, so shift would be minimized between f2.0 and f4 to 5.6. (Slight front focus at f2, slight back at f4.)

I used the 35 1.4 Nokton ver1 for some years and had generally great results, but checking closely on outdoor shots sometimes the sharpest focus would be details behind the subject. Didn’t notice at normal viewing distance. But when I really tested the lens I relegated it to dim light use at f1.4 to 2.0. It was quite good at 2.0 - a bit better than my 70 Summicron 35. When I got an M10 I switched to a Summarit 2.5.

Another lens I like is the 50 Nickel Heliar 2.0, but it has more focus shift than the 35 1.4 Nokton ver 1.

For my M9 now I like the 35 Nokton 1.4 ver2. It tamed the focus shift to very usable levels.

[TM1ka]

Unfortunately or thank goodness I read a report too late, so I also ordered a 1.4 40 used.
 At 300 € there was an original
 lenshood,  UV filter, fluji adapter, original packaging.
Today I tested it on the CL 1.4 and 2.0 (monochrome)
At 1.4 it is very soft ..
But I can not say whether it is the MC or SC version. Only Nokton classik is on the lens.
I guess it's the MC version. Follow the test with the M240 ..

i am happy😀

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Edited April 8, 2020 by TM1ka

[pippy]

1 hour ago, TM1ka said:

Unfortunately or thank goodness I read a report too late, so I also ordered a 1.4 40 used...
...I can not say whether it is the MC or SC version. Only Nokton classik is on the lens. I guess it's the MC version.

i am happy😀

If the report you mention was the one written by Mr. Rockwell then I, too, am glad I didn't read it before I bought my copy; He REALLY didn't like it much.

As every example of the single-coated version I've seen has the markings S.C engraved-and-blue-paint-filled (after 'Classic') I also suspect yours - like mine - is the multi-coated version which has no such M.C designation.

Glad you are happy with your lens but it shouldn't be too soft wide-open?............

Philip.

Edited April 8, 2020 by pippy

[J.Nordvik]

I had the 35mm for a short while. For me it was as always with all my lenses wide open or 5,6. I use a digital camera.

Here is one wide open taken with a M8. So many years have gone that I suspect it is OK to post pictures of these ladies.

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[J.Nordvik]

A crop from the same picture. I think the sharpness is good enough.

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[J.Nordvik]

I like that you can se the mosquitos. That was what I can remember from that night.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[CNagappa]

On 4/7/2020 at 9:55 AM, fotomas said:

Pretty much the same with mine. But it has on addition a back-focus with the OVF. 

The focus-distance is about 1,35 m. I just chose the 90 cm-mark because it was suitable and better to see.

f 1,4 OVF

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f 1,4 with EVF

f 2,0

f 2,8

f 4,0

f 5,6

f 8,0

Wonder if the VC 1,2 / 40 mm might be better in this?

I’m so glad I stumbled upon this thread. Thank you @fotomas and @fabianoliver for posting your pictures about the focus shift issue!

I bought a brand new Nokton Classic 40mm F1.4 as as starter lens for my used Leica M-E (220).

My lens (a 2019 copy, based on the date of the manual) has identical issues with the OVF on my M-E. I knew about the back-focus issue, but  did not understand the F2.8 - F4 focus shift issue until I read this thread.

I now believe that both the back-focus issue and focus-shift are design flaws, and not due to sample variation. The lens is still widely popular among mirrorless uses, as both these issues are not present in mirrorless cameras.

FYI, I solved the back focus with the OVF using @Lenshacker’s tweak:
https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/239357-is-this-focus-shift/?tab=comments#comment-4188073
(my post is near the end of that thread.)

[Guest]

I bought mine about 4 months ago and because of the forum was already aware of the focus shift issue.

But try as  i might and despite endless tests at different distances and apertures i get no focus shift and at 100% in lightroom the lens nails focus on the eyes.

Now probably in a proper scientific test some shift would show up but on my copy it is invisible and not an issue at all.

I have the SC version which i got cheap used but its easily my main lens for people pictures accounting for 85% of my images.

I bought the lens ready to ignore f2.8 and f4 but those apertures are just fine.

I have an m262 .