Long focusing mount for Hektor 135/4.5 head - ZOOKE?

[wlaidlaw]

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I have a lovely condition Hektor 135/4.5, which makes a lovely portrait lens, being almost as soft focus as a Thambar. However I only have the short focusing mount (?ZOOAN), so have to use it on a Visoflex. As a result it does not get used a lot. I know that long focusing direct mounts were made in both LTM and M mount. I think the code for one of those may be ZOOKE but I don't know for which one. I would like to get one of these long focusing mounts and have a slight preference for an LTM one, as I have loads of LTM to M rings I can use if I want to use on an M camera but the most likely recipient of a direct focusing Hektor would be my IIIg. If I can only get an M mount for the Hektor head, not a problem as I can use it on my SS M3, where it is actually sitting at the moment on a Visoflex II. 

Wilson

 

[Pyrogallol]

135mm Elmar/Hektor focussing barrels turn up on e bay from time to time, I have seen them but not taken much notice if they have sold or for how much, probably not a lot.

There are a couple of them for sale now, but you can probably pick up a whole lens for pretty much the same price as this one.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/LEICA-M-long-focusing-mount-hektor-4-5-135-135-135mm-4-5-Einstellfassung-lang-19/312982792479?hash=item48df3a691f:g:K~kAAOSww8td1Bfx

Edited March 9, 2020 by Pyrogallol

[luigi bertolotti]

Codes for the LTM long mount were indeed ZOOKE (then 14005) but also ZOKEG (then 14016) : my catalog (1961) specifies that ZOOKE is for Hektors under 1.130.001 and ZOKEG for later s/numbers  : I know that this s/n is the "divide" between rotating and non-rotating focusing head, but haven't idea of the real mechanical difference between the two (my LTM Hektro is late, 1.7xx.xxx, and haven't a previous version)

(the M long mount is ZOKEM - 14018 ,  but some catalog also quotes it as ZOOKE-M... 🙄)

 

Edited March 9, 2020 by luigi bertolotti

[zeitz]

It is my belief, and you guys may know better, that ZOOKE/ZOKEG/ZOOKEM/ZOOKE-M have to be adjusted by a repairman to a specific serial number head.  The serial number of the head is written on the first baffle in the lens, looking from the lens head end, on the mounts that I have.

ZOOAN is the code for the short mount.  ZOOBA is the code to convert the earliest 13.5 cm Hektor lens heads (sn up to 197000) to work on a ZOOAN mount.  I think ZOOBA included both the conversion and the ZOOAN mount.  I recall ZOOAN mounts also having serial numbers written inside them.

[luigi bertolotti]

51 minutes ago, zeitz said:

It is my belief, and you guys may know better, that ZOOKE/ZOKEG/ZOOKEM/ZOOKE-M have to be adjusted by a repairman to a specific serial number head.  The serial number of the head is written on the first baffle in the lens, looking from the lens head end, on the mounts that I have.

ZOOAN is the code for the short mount.  ZOOBA is the code to convert the earliest 13.5 cm Hektor lens heads (sn up to 197000) to work on a ZOOAN mount.  I think ZOOBA included both the conversion and the ZOOAN mount.  I recall ZOOAN mounts also having serial numbers written inside them.

Indeed, catalogs do specify that when ordering a long mount, one must specify the s/n of the lens head (and also if you want feet or meter scale) : but they do not say that lenshead has to be sent to Leitz... I wonder if this means that they could fine-adjust the mount with this info only...  Anyway, I think that if one finds (not so easily , maybe) a long mount in the marketplace, a goood repair shop can still make a correct adjustment (but maybe, the total cost isn't so far from the one of a good complete Hektor...)

 

Edited March 9, 2020 by luigi bertolotti

[wlaidlaw]

Mine is a very late Hektor of 1960 (1718117), so I suspect it might mount and focus near enough correctly on any of the later M long mounts like this one https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Leica-13-5cm-f4-5-Hektor-Focusing-Mount-Nice/283638626375?hash=item420a2df847:g:CPAAAOSwtKRdVI35 maybe a ZOKEG. It is also a good price, if I get it sent to my daughter in Baltimore, MD, which she can then bring over with her on her next visit.

I do have a lovely 135/4 Tele-Elmar-M which I bought in Cologne as new old (and unopened) stock. When immediately after buying it, I took it out of the box and sealed polythene bag to mount on my M8, the seller was horrified, which really amused me. However that is a very different lens from the dreamy Hektor and very sharp.

My friendly local camera repairman, Kelvin, although not a Leica specialist like his father was, has a full optical bench and could adjust the non-rotating RF cam/tongue in the long mount, which I assume is movable relative to the helicoid and held to the helicoid with locking screws, to give correct RF register if required. At the worst, I could use it on my SL and CL digitals to focus optically. 

Many thanks folks for all your kind advice. 

Wilson

PS Correction of earlier post. The Hector is actually sitting on a Visoflex 1 on my M3 SS, as the Visoflex 1 is much easier to use in portrait mode than a Viso II. See photo below

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Edited March 10, 2020 by wlaidlaw

[rionda]

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On 3/9/2020 at 5:09 PM, zeitz said:

 ZOOBA is the code to convert the earliest 13.5 cm Hektor lens heads (sn up to 197000) to work on a ZOOAN mount.

Sorry for jumping on an old thread, but what exactly did the ZOOBA involved? Did one have to send the head in and then something magical would happened to it?

I'm curious because I just got a ZOOAN (actually a 14071), and notice that my pre-war Hektor head does not focus to infinity on it. I guess I'll just get a later Hektor, but I am still curious about what the ZOOBA entailed.

Thanks,

Matteo

[wlaidlaw]

My understanding is that the ZOOBA alteration was done by the factory to change the early Hektor heads to work with the ZOOAN. Now presumably pre-ZOOBA/ZOOAN there was a way of focussing a 135 Hektor on a PLOOT. Some of the more knowledgeable Leica historians on the forum, will be able to tell you how it worked. 

Wilson

[rionda]

4 minutes ago, wlaidlaw said:

My understanding is that the ZOOBA alteration was done by the factory to change the early Hektor heads to work with the ZOOAN. Now presumably pre-ZOOBA/ZOOAN there was a way of focussing a 135 Hektor on a PLOOT. Some of the more knowledgeable Leica historians on the forum, will be able to tell you how it worked. 

Wilson

Thank you, Wilson.

I believe that pre-ZOOBA/ZOOAN one had to use the  "short focusing mount OHEBO", at least that's what I get from the Leica Wiki page on the Hektor .

Matteo

Edited April 3, 2020 by rionda
typo

[zeitz]

There are two photos attached.  In the photos the lens on the left is SN 196192; the lens on the right is SN 241740.  So before and after 197000.  The lens heads are distinctly different.  I believe the glass was removed from the old mount and placed in an entirely new mount during the ZOOBA conversion.  There was no way of using the 13.5cm f4.5 Hektor on PLOOT at infinity before the ZOOBA conversion was offered that I can find.  Hektor 197000 was made in 1934, so it pre-dated the introduction of PLOOT.  So Leitz changed the Hektor mount in preparation for PLOOT and ZOOAN.

Now to your problem, Matteo.  I still think ZOOAN mounts were adjusted to specific lens heads.  That is why a lens head serial number is inscribed internally on all the ZOOAN mounts that I have.  I think you will have to send your lens to a repairman to get it adjusted.  And I think you would be better off starting with a real ZOOAN, rather than a 14071which is probably a universal mount for all 135mm f4.5 Elmars.  My 14071 doesn't have the ZOOAN baffle and my 14071 doesn't have an inscribed serial number.

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[rionda]

Fantastic, thank you for the great information. It seems almost crazy that they would take the group out and put it in a new mount.

I will definitively start with a new Hektor 135 or even an Elmar 135/4, given that I have a 14071...which, by the way, has a serial number inscribed inside, just to make the matter more fun...

Matteo

Edited April 3, 2020 by rionda
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[zeitz]

Well there goes my theory that 14071 was universal for all lenses.  ZOOANs are plentiful and cheap.

The reason they had to go to a new lens element mounting is that, while they could design a focusing mount for the old lens element mounting, that focusing mount would not have a lot of focusing travel.  That is, there wouldn't be enough room for a lot of helicoil.

[wlaidlaw]

As the ZOOAN is used on a Visoflex, where you are focussing optically, as long as the Hektor can focus to infinity, I am not sure why the ZOOAN needs to be matched to the head. I suppose it is to get accurate scale focus, although by the time the R lenses came along, Leica was not concerned about that. R lenses are notorious for inaccurate scale focus at near infinity. My ZOOAN and Hektor 135 are not a matched pair, although oddly only a very few serial numbers apart and seem to work just fine. It even has quite an accurate infinity - just luck? 

Wilson

Edited April 4, 2020 by wlaidlaw

[luigi bertolotti]

3 hours ago, wlaidlaw said:

As the ZOOAN is used on a Visoflex, where you are focussing optically, as long as the Hektor can focus to infinity, I am not sure why the ZOOAN needs to be matched to the head....

Me too don't understand completely...🤥.. but is a fact that catalog does report , at ZOOAN, "please specify the s/n of your lens" (not mentioning feet or meters)...

Anyway, an occasion to play a little with my lensheads and make some odd tests : all the 3 "long" 135s (old Elmar f 4,5 - Hektor ("new", in my case), and Elmar f4 share the same thread for the lenshead , so mecanically all can be mounted on my ZOOAN :

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But, not surprsingly, the old Elmar 4,5 doesn't focus at all when mounted on Viso I with ZOOAN  (the two on the back are just to complete the picture... 😎)

And playing with other gear I discovered that this odd combo does focus correctly, from infinty to an unverified distance (around two meters, I'd say), when mounted directly on M240:

BUT... (apart any logic...) focus is achievable, but there is a strong vignetting , "tunnel effect" ... the sequence of diameters of 16471+16472+16467 isn't good...😁

Edited April 4, 2020 by luigi bertolotti

[zeitz]

ZOOAN has a distance scale, unlike the universal focusing mounts.  I guess Leitz wanted the scale to be right, particularly at infinity.  If lens and mount weren't matched, why did they bother to inscribe the serial number in ZOOAN?

[zeitz]

Luigi, the 135mm f4.0 Elmar lens head does not mount on ZOOAN.  There is a baffle in ZOOAN that prevents the 135mm f4.0 Elmar lens head from going into far enough to engage the threads.

It appears the 13.5cm f4.5 Elmar had the same lens element mounting as the old 13.5cm f4.5 Hektor (sn prior to 197000).

[rionda]

In Luigi's picture, there is a tele-elmar 135/4's head in the background. Can I use it on Visoflex I with 14071?

 

Thanks,

Matteo

[luigi bertolotti]

1 hour ago, rionda said:

In Luigi's picture, there is a tele-elmar 135/4's head in the background. Can I use it on Visoflex I with 14071?

 

Thanks,

Matteo

Absolutely no : Tele Elmar has its own focusing mount for Viso (16464) , but it has a BM for Viso II/III

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Edited April 4, 2020 by luigi bertolotti

[zeitz]

No, the Tele-Elmar 135/4 is a true telephone and is thus significantly shorter (the lens nodal point is closer to the focal plane) than the 135mm f4.5 Hektor and 135mm f4 Elmar.  The Visoflex I is 62.5mm thick; the Visoflex II is 40.0mm thick for LTM.  The Visoflex I is 63.5mm thick; the Visoflex II/III is 41mm thick for M bodies.  So Leitz gained a hefty 22.5mm of space by changing the Visoflex architecture.

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[luigi bertolotti]

1 hour ago, zeitz said:

Luigi, the 135mm f4.0 Elmar lens head does not mount on ZOOAN.  There is a baffle in ZOOAN that prevents the 135mm f4.0 Elmar lens head from going into far enough to engage the threads.

It appears the 13.5cm f4.5 Elmar had the same lens element mounting as the old 13.5cm f4.5 Hektor (sn prior to 197000).

Strange... I have a ZOOAN (DOF with f 32) but the lenshead of my Elmar 135 f4 fits into nicely... 🙄