Exposure Compensation Question

[MikeMyers]

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In retrospect it's pretty obvious, but at the time it wasn't.

I set my M10 to take a photo of a sunset, selecting an ISO, then a shutter speed, and adjusting the aperture ring until the camera indicated I was close to a good exposure.  After taking one shot, I used the exposure compensation control to underexpose by a little, which didn't seem to make much difference.  So for the next shot, I set exposure comp to -3, which still didn't seem to make a difference.

I'm guessing that because the ISO and the shutter speed were both set, the exposure compensation couldn't do anything.

First question - if this is the case, maybe the exposure comp window should not move to + or - settings, as the camera can't do anything at that point, so it shouldn't indicate that it is working.

Second question, maybe there's something I haven't learned yet, some setting in the menu that allows the exposure compensation control to work, even if it's "over-riding" my settings?  If I'm telling the camera to underexpose, I think it should either do something, or somehow give a warning that it's unable to do so.

Third question, what if I had selected bracketing?  Would it also have failed to work?

Last question - next time this happens, should I leave either ISO or Shutter on (A)uto ?

I'll copy my photo down below.  As I expected, the sky is all burnt out.  If this happens again, unless you guys tell me otherwise, I'll just manually decrease the aperture by one or two stops.  For now, that's my "fix", but in my opinion, for whatever it's worth, if the exposure compensation control is unable to adjust the ISO or the shutter, it should deactivate itself, and do nothing, which in truth is all it can do - nothing.

Edit: I also added a copy of the type of image I wanted to create - doing the work in Lightroom.

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Edited February 28, 2020 by MikeMyers
added an "after" picture.

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[250swb]

I think you are misunderstanding how exposure comp works when you are using manual settings. Unlike in Auto mode where setting -3 ex comp gives three stops less exposure in manual setting -3 gives you a target exposure that you need to achieve by adjusting aperture or shutter.

The easy way to see it is set your camera to LV with manual ISO and shutter and you'll see the meter bar at the bottom of the screen is split horizontally, the top your actual exposure and the bottom the exposure compensation you have dialled in. It is now up to you to dial the shutter or aperture to get the meter to match your chosen exposure compensation. The way to see it in the viewfinder is you have the red dot showing a 'normal' exposure, but you want three stops less and have this set, so while pressing the front button turn the shutter dial to a faster speed, or make the aperture smaller until the red dot reappears in the viewfinder and showing you now have a -3 exposure. Alternatively do it the old fashioned way and just move the shutter dial or aperture three stops.

[jaapv]

I am quite puzzled why you would want to use exposure compensation to adjust your exposure when you are in Manual. The whole point of manual exposure is that you adjust the values yourself by varying aperture and shutter speed.  The triangles in the viewfinder will indicate the under/over exposure. Refer to the user manual. EVcomp has no function in Manual. I bet that Leica never expected that anybody would attempt to use it in this situation.

Addition to Jeff's post: switch on the Histogram to see what you are doing.

[250swb]

27 minutes ago, jaapv said:

I am quite puzzled why you would want to use exposure compensation to adjust your exposure when you are in Manual. The whole point of manual exposure is that you adjust the values yourself by varying aperture and shutter speed.  The triangles in the viewfinder will indicate the under/over exposure. Refer to the user manual. EVcomp has no function in Manual. I bet that Leica never expected that anybody would attempt to use it in this situation.

Addition to Jeff's post: switch on the Histogram to see what you are doing.

I could imagine that if you don't want to take the camera from your eye, and given half stops on the shutter dial making counting more open to miscounting, it is an easy way to switch between normal and a predetermined under/over exposure. So I can see why Leica implemented it this way in manual mode, although as you say, why bother, because 99% of the time a photographer would manually bracket difficult lighting situations anyway, it's not even like you are using film up.

Edited February 28, 2020 by 250swb

[mujk]

1 hour ago, 250swb said:

while pressing the front button turn the shutter dial to a faster speed,

I'm not quite sure what this combination is supposed to do? At least on my M10 it seems that the shutter dial does the same regardless of pressing the front button or not.

Otherwise I agree. When in full manual, exposure compensation just changes the exposure meter "bias" but doesn't, of course, change exposure itself. That you need to do yourself, which is the whole idea behind manual mode.

[250swb]

21 minutes ago, mujk said:

I'm not quite sure what this combination is supposed to do? At least on my M10 it seems that the shutter dial does the same regardless of pressing the front button or not.

Otherwise I agree. When in full manual, exposure compensation just changes the exposure meter "bias" but doesn't, of course, change exposure itself. That you need to do yourself, which is the whole idea behind manual mode.

You are absolutely correct, it was a false memory, you can only check under/over exposure comp by looking at the LV screen or the shutter or aperture dial.

Edited February 28, 2020 by 250swb

[MikeMyers]

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2 hours ago, jaapv said:

I am quite puzzled why you would want to use exposure compensation to adjust your exposure when you are in Manual. The whole point of manual exposure is that you adjust the values yourself by varying aperture and shutter speed.  The triangles in the viewfinder will indicate the under/over exposure. Refer to the user manual. EVcomp has no function in Manual. I bet that Leica never expected that anybody would attempt to use it in this situation.

Addition to Jeff's post: switch on the Histogram to see what you are doing.

A few quick thoughts -

I was using the viewfinder, not Live View.

Given the choices of Auto-ISO, Auto-Shutter, or Manual, I picked Manual, mostly so I will learn to be more aware of how the M10 works.  In my case, I didn't have much time, and I was turning the aperture ring until the camera indicated an acceptable exposure.  If I had a little more time, I'd have used my Sekonic exposure meter.  Regardless, I then had a reasonable starting point for exposure.  'japppv', you're right - Leica probably didn't anticipate someone like me from thinking I could adjust the exposure with the exposure comp lever on the back.  I do weird or goofy things, because at time they made sense to me.  Based on what I know now, when I adjusted the exposure comp control, with the camera in Manual mode, nothing should have happened.  The fact that the camera implied that it "worked" left me puzzled.

Going forward, if I'm going to turn off auto-ISO and auto-shutter, I will also turn of the rear switch, or think of some other useful thing that maybe it can do.

 

In the real world, I'm still a beginner with this camera.  Every time I use it, I learn more, andI also bought the "Expanded Guide".  The more stuff I try, the more mistakes I expect I'll make.  While I'm learning, Live View is staying switched off, and the "Visoflex" I bought used from B&H is going to stay at home.  For better or worse, I want to understand everything, and  try things.  

 

'Jaapv', I remember agreeing with you on anything and everything you posted here starting in 1996 or so when I joined the forum, and I understand what you just wrote about the rear button, but if I was involved in writing software for the M10, if auto-ISO and auto-Shutter are both turned off, then the exposure comp switch should be de-activated.   If it was deactivated, I probably would have figured out what you guys are now telling me all on my own.

 

Since everything is now set to Manual, if I try to use "exposure bracketing", I assume that will also no longer work.  Will try this afternoon.

[a.noctilux]

"Exposure bracketing" in manual, then 😉.

 

When you set "Manual" everything, the M10 just make execution of your order, but let you know how much the camera "would" set the shutter speed/aperture

for it's own metering and it does take into account your other settings "for Auto", like compensation or bracketing (it just informs you).

For bracketing in manual, that is straight forward, at will you vary your settings by aperture and/or speed between multiple images.

 

Complication came when you want the settings used for "Auto" when you use the camera in "Manual mode".

Edited February 28, 2020 by a.noctilux

[MikeMyers]

I'm confused.  I just set my M10 with the correct exposure for shooting out my window, and it took a good photo.  Then I turned on bracketing, and I could take three or five images, with the over exposed and under exposed images looking like what I expected - too light, and too dark.  So while I don't know if the camera was changing the ISO or the shutter speed, it was doing what I expected.

Then I left the camera in manual mode, turned bracketing off, and turned the exposure compensation to -3.  The display in the viewfinder confirmed that I was underexposing by 3 stops.  I took the photo, and has you people have pointed out, it was just a normally exposed image.

So, when set for "manual mode", the bracketing works as expected, but the exposure compensation seems like it should be working, but it doesn't.

 

No point in arguing, it is what it is.  I like the idea of being able to compose an image in the viewfinder, and set what ought to be a reasonable exposure.  At that point I would like to turn the exposure compensation one way or the other, and over or underexpose the image.  So, my conclusion is I need to either leave the ISO or Shutter in (A), .....OR.....  the other option is to leave everything in Manual mode, look at the shutter, aperture, or ISO, and adjust one of the three to get my corrected exposure.

Think of me as being made of modeling clay.  When people here suggest a better way of doing something, I'll be happy to try it.  You guys (an gals) have years of experience with the M10, and I've got weeks.   Thanks!!!

[dkmoore]

4 hours ago, MikeMyers said:

ISo, my conclusion is I need to either leave the ISO or Shutter in (A), .....OR.....  the other option is to leave everything in Manual mode, look at the shutter, aperture, or ISO, and adjust one of the three to get my corrected exposure.

Hello there! I think it is great that you are diving into manual mode and Leica cameras. I’ll offer my thoughts. 
 

if you are going to simply adjust one of the variables (aperture, shutter speed, or ISO) to get a “correct” exposure, you might as well use the camera in auto. By the way, there is absolutely nothing wrong with using the camera in aperture priority, etc.  
 

To get the most out of manual, you want to understand how each setting helps you creatE an image. For instance, a low shutter speed can  smooth water and clouds or make movement blurred. For aperture, you can control depth of field, etc.  You would want to adjust the settings based on the desired outcome to fully utilize manual mode. Simply rotating the aperture until you get the red dot is not really using manual mode and in fact, you would be better off in aperture priority.  
 

I am not advocating that you give up manual mode but I want to ensure that you understand why you would use one setting over the other. I use both and interchange very frequently. Say for instance you are shooting landscape (like your reference shots) I would continue using manual to practice and understand. For anything faster paced, I would recommend aperture priority as you are essentially doing this anyway. 
 

good luck and keep on learning. 

[MikeMyers]

Thanks - I started with a Contax II back in the 1960's, and all I really knew until the Nikon F came along was rangefinder.  For a long time now I've been doing sports photography, landscapes, and "travel photos" mostly from the time I spend in India.

I do know how aperture, depth of field, and stopping motion work, and I usually select an ISO to match what I want from the aperture and shutter, but I very much do NOT know the things you noted:   "For instance, a low shutter speed can  smooth water and clouds" .  I guess I've gotten lazy from using my other cameras (currently Nikon D750, Fuji X100f, and Canon G7X Pro Mk II).  Long ago, manual focusing was part of taking a photo.  Now it's something I need to remind myself to do.  

You're right that I need to learn all these things, but the very first thing (I think) is to get familiar with the camera, see what works, and what doesn't work, and plan better next time.  

With all my experience growing up, ISO was sort of fixed.  If I put I "Plus X", then I just needed to select a combination of aperture and shutter speed.  With my other cameras, I would select what I thought was an appropriate ISO, but then I mostly left it at that setting.  I guess I was getting lazy, as the camera, often in (P)rogram mode, made everything look good.

I think I understand what you wrote, and why, and I agree.  I suspect the only way I'm really going to learn this stuff is by forcing myself to manually adjust settings in (M)anual mode.  That, and either zone focusing, or remembering to focus for every shot.  

Also, on my M8.2 I found that my 35mm lens was the "best" lens to always have on the camera by default, changing if necessary.  With the M10, 35 seems too wide for a lens I'll usually have on the camera - I guess that's why way back then, the 50mm was called a "normal" lens.  

 

I'm spoiled now.  In the 1960's, I didn't have to "remember" to do stuff, I just did it.  Focusing was as natural as seeing.  Nikon found a way to do all that for me - all I needed to do was compose.  Not any more.  I'd like all this stuff to become as natural as it used to be, so I can fully concentrate on composition and timing.    I'll get there!

[MikeMyers]

Another thought to add here - I forgot who pointed it out, but the ONLY reason "exposure compensation" is even there, is to force the camera to do what I want it to do, not what its internal computer is making it do.  Therefore, if I plan on using (M)anual exposure, there's no longer a need to have that rear control set for "exposure compensation".  Until I decide otherwise, I'm going to turn it OFF, meaning if I bump it accidentally, it won't be messing with my images.  Thanks for pointing this out.  I wasn't thinking properly, and now it's all obvious.

[dkmoore]

4 minutes ago, MikeMyers said:

Thanks - I started with a Contax II back in the 1960's, and all I really knew until the Nikon F came along was rangefinder.  For a long time now I've been doing sports photography, landscapes, and "travel photos" mostly from the time I spend in India.

I do know how aperture, depth of field, and stopping motion work, and I usually select an ISO to match what I want from the aperture and shutter, but I very much do NOT know the things you noted:   "For instance, a low shutter speed can  smooth water and clouds" .  I guess I've gotten lazy from using my other cameras (currently Nikon D750, Fuji X100f, and Canon G7X Pro Mk II).  Long ago, manual focusing was part of taking a photo.  Now it's something I need to remind myself to do.  

You're right that I need to learn all these things, but the very first thing (I think) is to get familiar with the camera, see what works, and what doesn't work, and plan better next time.  

With all my experience growing up, ISO was sort of fixed.  If I put I "Plus X", then I just needed to select a combination of aperture and shutter speed.  With my other cameras, I would select what I thought was an appropriate ISO, but then I mostly left it at that setting.  I guess I was getting lazy, as the camera, often in (P)rogram mode, made everything look good.

I think I understand what you wrote, and why, and I agree.  I suspect the only way I'm really going to learn this stuff is by forcing myself to manually adjust settings in (M)anual mode.  That, and either zone focusing, or remembering to focus for every shot.  

Also, on my M8.2 I found that my 35mm lens was the "best" lens to always have on the camera by default, changing if necessary.  With the M10, 35 seems too wide for a lens I'll usually have on the camera - I guess that's why way back then, the 50mm was called a "normal" lens.  

 

I'm spoiled now.  In the 1960's, I didn't have to "remember" to do stuff, I just did it.  Focusing was as natural as seeing.  Nikon found a way to do all that for me - all I needed to do was compose.  Not any more.  I'd like all this stuff to become as natural as it used to be, so I can fully concentrate on composition and timing.    I'll get there!

I agree that you will get there, simply because you are putting yourself out there, asking questions, and experimenting. 
 

 

[dkmoore]

3 minutes ago, MikeMyers said:

Another thought to add here - I forgot who pointed it out, but the ONLY reason "exposure compensation" is even there, is to force the camera to do what I want it to do, not what its internal computer is making it do.  Therefore, if I plan on using (M)anual exposure, there's no longer a need to have that rear control set for "exposure compensation".  Until I decide otherwise, I'm going to turn it OFF, meaning if I bump it accidentally, it won't be messing with my images.  Thanks for pointing this out.  I wasn't thinking properly, and now it's all obvious.

This is correct. However, using exp comp in aperture priority does help with the M10M. I’ll use -3 to -7 at times, which allows me to more quickly (sloppy) expose. 
 

 

[MikeMyers]

Could you please elaborate?  How does Exposure Compensation help with the M10 Monochrome, if I select Aperture Priority?  Is it just that it speeds up the process?

Also, between yesterday and today, I realized something I wrote is unimportant "Until I decide otherwise, I'm going to turn it OFF, meaning if I bump it accidentally, it won't be messing with my images".  If I'm using (M)anual mode, it makes no difference if I accidentally bump the switch and set an exposure compensation.  The camera will ignore it.

 

........and while I understand where I should understand and be careful to select an appropriate shutter speed and aperture, after re-thinking everything last night, I can't see any good reason not to set the ISO to "Auto".  It's not like with my M8.2 where I usually won't go over 320.  Using Auto ISO, and being able to use Exposure Compensation sounds like a very acceptable way to leave my camera, unless/until I want something special.  If I can select a shutter speed to freeze (or not) motion in my image, and set my aperture based on how much or little depth of field I want, those are the most important settings.  If the ISO goes to 50, 500, or 5,000 (fake numbers), the M10 will give me useable results...    not that I would allow it to go that high under ordinary photo capture.  I think this is something I will be testing, after using just (M)anual for a while.

 

[pgk]

Firstly, if you are shooting RAW files then you have some exposure latitude (some will find this statement difficult to accept, but there is).

Secondly, Exposure Compensation is designed to work in Aperture Priority when you are aware that the lighting is such that the camera's meter will be fooled into a wrong exposure. It requires user input based on experience.

Thirdly, setting Auto ISO won't help if Exposure Compensation is needed as it will merely adjust the ISO for the light levels encountered.

Lastly, by far the easiest way to deal with sunsets is to use Manual Exposure, adjust until you think that you have exposure right (guestimate from the meter reading) and take a shot. Look at the histogram, analyse and re-adjust the camera settings and then leave the settings alone until the light changes.

Works for me every time, but then I can't remember using a Leica RF on Aperture Priority or ever using Exposure Compensation.

[MikeMyers]

19 minutes ago, pgk said:

.......by far the easiest way to deal with sunsets is to use Manual Exposure, adjust until you think that you have exposure right (guestimate from the meter reading) and take a shot. Look at the histogram, analyse and re-adjust the camera settings and then leave the settings alone until the light changes.......

Will do - better than anything I have yet considered.  I've always just used my eye, but the histogram will show me what's really happening inside the camera.  Thanks!!

[IkarusJohn]

19 hours ago, MikeMyers said:

Another thought to add here - I forgot who pointed it out, but the ONLY reason "exposure compensation" is even there, is to force the camera to do what I want it to do, not what its internal computer is making it do.  Therefore, if I plan on using (M)anual exposure, there's no longer a need to have that rear control set for "exposure compensation".  Until I decide otherwise, I'm going to turn it OFF, meaning if I bump it accidentally, it won't be messing with my images.  Thanks for pointing this out.  I wasn't thinking properly, and now it's all obvious.

No, this isn’t quite right - read Steve’s (250swb) post above again.

If you’re in Aperture priority or Auto-ISO mode, yes the camera will adjust those settings (or both, which I find confusing) based on the meter reading - you just set for depth of field and leave the camera to sort out shutter speed and ISO.  As you rightly say, exposure compensation will force those settings to under or over expose to the required amount (-2/3EV in my case).

In manual mode, which I agree gives you more control and makes you think about what your image needs, you are still looking at the >.< meter indicators (presumably) in the viewfinder.  If you have -3 EV (a huge setting), AND you then adjust your aperture, shutter or ISO to match the perfect (under)exposure suggested by the meter, then your image will be under-exporsed.

In manual mode, the camera is not changing any settings - you need to do that.  What it is doing is changing the ideal exposure setting the meter is giving you.  So, unless you’re using sunny 16, you do need exposure compensation in manual mode (or you just set the ideal exposure, then click down or up for the required compensation).  It sounds like what you were doing was setting ISO, shutter and aperture manually, then thinking you were changing your exposure settings using exposure compensation - you weren’t.  You were just changing the meter reading.  In manual mode, you then needed to change one of the manual settings (aperture, shutter or ISO) to match the adjusted meter.

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[MikeMyers]

After another few days working with the M10, I decided that I am most likely to want to be involved in the shutter speed and aperture, and least likely to be involved in the ISO.  The shutter and aperture will have a big effect on my image, and the ISO not so much (usually), 

So, I set the camera back to      auto-ISO, and I pick a shutter speed and an aperture for what I'm trying to do.  The camera plays with the ISO, and I verify that the meter reading seems to be acceptable.

Back when I shot film, the ASA was fixed, depending on what film I was using.  I couldn't always use the shutter and aperture I preferred (although if by magic, I could have have switched films in mid-roll, that would have been great.  That's all auto-ISO is doing.

 

I don't know if it's true or not, but I would hope that if I pick the shutter and aperture, and I let the camera select an appropriate ISO, if I also want to use exposure compensation, maybe the camera will apply that the the ISO and leave the shutter and aperture the way I set them.  I need to test this, but even if the camera does it differently, if I want to underexpose by one f/stop, one way or another the camera will do it.

Maybe auto-ISO is "cheating", but it's the best compromise I can find for me, and I still think I'll feel in charge of the exposure.

I used it this way today, and was very happy with everything except my pathetic forgetfulness as to focus.  Most of the time I caught it in time, but I need to make it automatic.  I was already using zone focusing, but when the subject of the image moved towards me, I should have recognized that I needed to adjust things.  I'm still too spoiled by my Nikon cameras.

Sorry for being so.......    forgetful.  I've got far too many years of "bad habits" to break.

[MikeMyers]

On 2/29/2020 at 5:02 PM, IkarusJohn said:

No, this isn’t quite right - read Steve’s (250swb) post above again.

If you’re in Aperture priority or Auto-ISO mode, yes the camera will adjust those settings (or both, which I find confusing) based on the meter reading - you just set for depth of field and leave the camera to sort out shutter speed and ISO.  As you rightly say, exposure compensation will force those settings to under or over expose to the required amount (-2/3EV in my case).........

Please confirm.

If I am in Auto-ISO mode, and I select an aperture and a shutter, and presumably the viewfinder indicators will confirm I now have a good exposure (according to the camera).

Now, if I use exposure compensation to either + or  -  3 stops. and leave everything else unchanged, the resulting photo will be over or under exposed by those 3 (or whatever) stops.   And presumably, ALL my next shots will also be over or under exposed, until I return the exposure compensation to "zero".

 

I will try this later today, taking one photo with no compensation, then taking an image with +3 stops compensation, then the last photo with -3 stops of compensation.  From what I (think) I've read, this should work.