cl: waiting impatiently for mine

[gteague]

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working on the favorites and fn menus now and found something that doesn't seem right. for the right dial button you can select 8 items, but it doesn't work nearly as expected. you hit the button, scroll to the function you want like drive mode, and it doesn't go into drive mode. i went back and forth 20 times trying to figure out why. only by accident i discovered that the list is like a temporary assignment and first you have to select your item, then exit and next time you hit the button it will go into the function you wanted. very bizarre behavior and acts nothing like the /fn/ button. it's so disconcerting that i settled on putting a single item in there so i wouldn't have to go through 2-4 steps to get to my function.

/guy

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[ramarren]

You're very new to the camera. Take some time to learn the control paradigm and logic before passing judgement. It's somewhat different from most other cameras, most similar to the Leica SL. The time you press a button is a significant thing ... there are short presses and long presses. 

The FN and right dial button work the same way: A long press lets you select what function you want to use with the button, a short press activates the function you assigned. In the customize section of the MENU, you can determine what functions you want to be able to swap between on these buttons. 

For Example:  

• I have the right dial button configured to swap between just ISO and Focus Peaking, and I usually leave it set to ISO. A quick press of the button brings up ISO setting, you roll a dial to get to the setting you want and then half press the shutter release or the center button on the four-way to set it. 
• I have the FN button set to swap between Self Timer, Exposure Compensation, Auto ISO settings, White Balance, and Color Temperature, and I usually have it set to quick press to get to the self timer, roll a dial to pick the self timer mode, lock it in with the shutter release half press. 

Very simple, really. Once you get the feel of it, it becomes very easy to remember and use. I only very rarely change these settings, and set most everything else in the MENUs and don't change it at all when shooting. 

Setting up the user profiles is a similar effort. What I did is set up the camera the way I most often want it and set that as my first user profile. Then I selected that user profile, figured the changes I wanted to make for some specific use, and saved that as the second profile. Selected the first profile again, when I wanted to set the camera up for some other specific use, made the changes for that, and saved that as the third. Etc. Then I Exported all the profiles, which writes them to a file on the SD card. Once you have that, you can retrieve ALL your settings whenever you update firmware, and you can always pick a user profile to get back to your customized default state with a minimal number of button presses. I have the User Profiles command on the MENU Favorites page, so it's one press of MENU, pick User Profiles, pick the one I want for nearly anything, no matter how many changes I made in the course of some session. 

It takes more then ten minutes to understand a modern camera. Give it some time, and read the manual.

G

 

[ramarren]

I have one M Adapter L and one R Adapter M, and have had them since 2015 and 2014 respectively. They've allowed me to share my R-mount lenses on, first, the M-P typ 240, then then both R and M mount lenses on the SL and now CL. While expensive compared to third party adapters they're beautifully made, have shown NO wear in through all the use I've put them to, and have features that few to no other mount adapters have (the M Adapter L allows six bit code transfer for M lens profiles and better ergonomics, the R Adapter M allows use of R lens profiles when using it stacked on the M Adapter L, and has a sturdy detachable tripod mount ... much better to secure the camera to tripod or camera stand than the screw in the bottom of the body). They're high quality and they feel like a part of the same camera system, which is what they are. 

I used Novoflex adapters for R and M lenses when I had a Sony A7, which are some of the best third party adapters around and not cheap either. The Leica mount adapters are significantly better quality than they are. Quality costs money and provides benefits... 

If the goal was simply to save money, I'd stick with a Nikon. But I wanted something better, and lenses that are better than that. That's my personal opinion, after fifty some years of working with tons of different equipment, not the start of another senseless discussion. No one is going to change my mind.  

Edited February 27, 2020 by ramarren

[gteague]

oh, i'm not passing judgement. just noting the differences between the panasonic systems i'm used to and this one. and yes, i spoke too soon, the /fn/ and the right dial button functions works the same way and all i have to do is logically separate them, i.e., right button for focus and drive stuff, /fn/ for less used stuff like the evf/lcd 3 way toggle which i was delighted to see as you can save a lot of battery juice by using it.

the user profiles are easier on the leica than on the panasonics as the latter have a translation error embedded over 3 models now which make someone new to the function think they're going to erase the settings in the camera if they copy them to a profile. i rarely use these though.

the panasonic does have a huge advantage though in a display mode which brings up a screen with 6-12 items you can change simply by touch or dials and buttons. things like iso/wb/video resolution/picture format &c all the bones of your shooting all on one compact screen showing their settings at a glance. leitz should immediately steal this. also, the leica favorites is easier to config and use than the quick menu on the panasonic although that one has a 'my menu' you can add to the main menu, but it's not as easy to get to as the leica. i stick the system stuff in there like format, user profiles, &c, all the stuff it's hard to dig down to in the main menus.

no, so far i'm not fussed at all and am well pleased that i'll be able to set it up the way i like. oh, but where panasonic has everyone beat is that in the s1 they added the ability to go directly into the photo styles and with one function button you can toggle between your default color profile and b&w and since i shoot about 25-33% monochrome i'm hitting that button constantly. every other camera you just go into the styles and then have to slog over to the one your want and that gets old fast since you can't delete the ones you don't use. also panasonic has a killer monochrome called l-monochrome--i'm hoping leica can match it eventually.

oh, and the s1 has a non-destructive teleconverter function which i also constantly use. it just reduces the resolution in favor of 1.4x or 2x focal length. but that would only be useful on the cl when using a telephoto with ois, so i won't miss it that much.

/guy

Edited February 27, 2020 by gteague

[gteague]

ha! just noticed the most glaring difference between the cl and my panasonics. there is no aspect ratio setting--i'm stuck in 3:2 jail!

my goto display for my photos is my 4k hdr tv set and i always set video mode to hlg (hdr) to take advantage of it. and i think most cameras default to 16:9 for video, or at least they should. so does the cl shoot video in 3:2 aspect ratio? not that i plan to shoot video with it other than the most casual clips. but it's going to crimp my style a little to go back to 3:2 instead of 16:9 as my photos won't match my tv display exactly as i've gotten used to.

not a deal breaker by any means, but i'll have to adjust.

another thing i noticed is that a couple of function depend on you holding the shutter half-pressed and then manipulating another control. it took me a long time to figure out why, in af when i turned my focus ring i wasn't getting the focus aids. this is impossible to do without a rock solid grip so that your forefinger muscle doesn't start quivering and seizing up, so i'm having to work around that necessity. 

again, i'm not being negative here, i live for workarounds!

/guy

Edited February 27, 2020 by gteague

[jaapv]

The workaround for the aspect ratio being LR or Photoshop?
The same with styles. Have we finally found a member who uses them?    I think most of us would prefer the power of a computer for converting to B&W.
 I can't help with your finger - mine doesn't  

[Viv]

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The only complaint I have about my CL is the wandering focus point.

It's a pleasure to shoot with and produces great results.

[LocalHero1953]

If you're shooting raw, you can sort out colour, B&W, aspect ratio etc in post.

I don't like setting the multiple functions to the dial and Fn button (I can never remember what I have set, and I find it slow to assign a function, then use it), but I do use User Profiles - I wish the CL had a few more than 6. The one function that I cannot easily activate, either on the CL or the SL, is swapping from Face AF to Single Point AF, which I find I want to do a lot: when Face AF doesn't work, I want a quick way to get to Single Point. At the moment I just use the Favourites menu, but it is not quick.

Leica HAS implemented the same quick access graphical display mode that you ask for - but it's on the SL2 (the Sigma fp has the same thing). I guess they might add it to a future CL firmware update, but I suspect we're past the time of major CL updates.

[gteague]

7 hours ago, jaapv said:

The workaround for the aspect ratio being LR or Photoshop?
The same with styles. Have we finally found a member who uses them?    I think most of us would prefer the power of a computer for converting to B&W.
 I can't help with your finger - mine doesn't  

i only postprocess (or shoot raw) if you hold a gun to my head. it's why i'm so meticulous in setting up a camera, so it'll crank out jpegs as good as an hour's worth of raw processing. and there's nothing which would ever convince me to run an adobe product--that company is the spawn of satan.   seriously, they screwed up my computer so badly trying to fix an update to elements that i can't run any adobe product and they're unable to fix the problem. a pox on their existence.

/guy

Edited February 27, 2020 by gteague

[gteague]

7 hours ago, Viv said:

The only complaint I have about my CL is the wandering focus point.

It's a pleasure to shoot with and produces great results.

i've been seeing a lot of mention of that issue but i haven't yet seen it. i shoot single point, hold, and reframe most of the time when face detect isn't appropriate or continuously hits the wrong subject. i tried it last night and it seemed to work just as expected--the box didn't wander anywhere.

perhaps you guys are talking about the touch focus? i can't use that anyway because my nose focuses when i'm using the evf. i did find that the manual focus stuff didn't seem to work in the multi-field modes in that when i autofocused then turned the manual focus ring, it didn't shift into manual--i had to hit the mf switch on the sigma lens. but in  single box mode, the switch to mf with the focus ring worked fine.

/guy

Edited February 27, 2020 by gteague

[gteague]

6 hours ago, LocalHero1953 said:

If you're shooting raw, you can sort out colour, B&W, aspect ratio etc in post.

I don't like setting the multiple functions to the dial and Fn button (I can never remember what I have set, and I find it slow to assign a function, then use it), but I do use User Profiles - I wish the CL had a few more than 6. The one function that I cannot easily activate, either on the CL or the SL, is swapping from Face AF to Single Point AF, which I find I want to do a lot: when Face AF doesn't work, I want a quick way to get to Single Point. At the moment I just use the Favourites menu, but it is not quick.

Leica HAS implemented the same quick access graphical display mode that you ask for - but it's on the SL2 (the Sigma fp has the same thing). I guess they might add it to a future CL firmware update, but I suspect we're past the time of major CL updates.

i found that when i set af mode to a function button, i simply press the button and select from the 4-5 options. this is no different from my panasonic except that the s1 lets you remove the modes you don't use, thus limiting the scrolling to select a mode. i too bounce continuously from single point to multi and now that i see the tracking works so well on the cl, i'll be using that too as i shoot a lot of slow moving critters.

but i do feel your pain completely as i feel the same way about a color and a monochrome style. i can toggle with one button on the s1 and scrolling to my choice is going to get old fast as much as i use mono.

yeah, i'd love to have that settings screen as it would free up nearly all the fn slots you'd normally have to use for those settings.

 

/guy

Edited February 27, 2020 by gteague

[jaapv]

14 minutes ago, gteague said:

i only postprocess (or shoot raw) if you hold a gun to my head. it's why i'm so meticulous in setting up a camera, so it'll crank out jpegs as good as an hour's worth of raw processing. and there's nothing which would ever convince me to run an adobe product--that company is the spawn of satan.   seriously, they screwed up my computer so badly trying to fix an update to elements that i can't run any adobe product and they're unable to fix the problem. a pox on their existence.

/guy

Pity - you lose a lot of data and quality that way. There are plenty of excellent postprocessing programs nowadays outside ofA dobe: Capture One, Affinity, On1, Silkypix, to name but a few.

On average a well-taken photograph should not take more than a few minutes to postprocess beyond JPG-level. Much less work than the darkroom used to be. For people who want to minimize their postprocessing time and effort I recommend using the preset system of ON1. An image will not take more than a couple of clicks and a swipe on one or two sliders to get a satisfactory result.

[gteague]

11 minutes ago, jaapv said:

Pity - you lose a lot of data and quality that way. There are plenty of excellent postprocessing programs nowadays outside ofA dobe: Capture One, Affinity, On1, Silkypix, to name but a few.

On average a well-taken photograph should not take more than a few minutes to postprocess beyond JPG-level. Much less work than the darkroom used to be. For people who want to minimize their postprocessing time and effort I recommend using the preset system of ON1. An image will not take more than a couple of clicks and a swipe on one or two sliders to get a satisfactory result.

oh, i have dxo and think it's one of the very best--especially in the results from the default raw script. and i love that it supports nearly every camera and lens i've ever owned and automatically corrects distortion. but i'm old and retired and don't have to shoot to please anyone except myself anymore. if i was making money on my shots or using them for things other than viewing on my tv or internet sharing i'd be shooting 100% raw, but for the last 5 or more years the in-camera processing of jpg's has gotten so good on the top cameras that it would take me 10-20x as long, even in software so efficient as dxo, to equal the out of camera jpg.

now, if i found myself in a situation low light and needing an extra 2-4 stops of dynamic range, i guarantee you i'd shoot raw. just haven't found myself in that scenario for quite awhile and i'd just be wasting space shooting raw+jpg.

... oh, and i could see shooting raw in order to try to equalize the (slight) quality loss apc vs full frame. but i have a very good full frame camera and don't need to force the cl into competing with it quality-wise.

horses for courses, eh mate?  

/guy

Edited February 27, 2020 by gteague

[jaapv]

Yeah, well, I like postprocessing for the results I get. Especially OOC colour is rarely anything near where I like it to be, and my B&W camera, the Monochrom 1 has virtually mandatory postprocessing. I have been shooting raw since 2002 and I am not going to downgrade.

[gteague]

i completely understand mate. and like i say, i no longer have a need to wring that last 2-3% out of a shot. i loved processing back in the film days and spent many happy full days in the darkroom. but i learned that you could save yourself a lot of work if you put more time into the shots and got things right to begin with and to this day i feel that if i have to crop, i've blown the shot. yeah, i'm a joy to live with!

so you now seem to have a unicorn. a person who's been serious about photography for decades who doesn't shoot raw, shoots in 16:9 aspect, and thinks the panasonic l.monochrome style yields gorgeous b&w photographs. not saying i'd turn down a monochrom if you offered it to me, y'understand! i assure you that if i could afford one, one would be my constant companion. i spent so much time in b&w in the film days and i actually pre-visualize nearly every shot in b&w and calculate the zones.

[later note: just after i bragged about dxo, i opened it to add the cl and it's not there. the closest thing in the leica section is the leica 't' and the 23/2 lens is in there. dxo has gone through a bankruptcy sort of procedure recently and they seem to have laid off all their lab guys who develop the modules as the iphone xs max still isn't there over a year after release and worse, not a single sigma lens that i can find, much less the fp camera. i'm very disappointed in dxo over not keeping up despite me having to update every year to get new modules and i might have to quit recommending them despite my feeling they have the best raw processor that is easy enough for mere humans to use.

i guess i should get around to shooting at least one test shot today. too cold to stick my nose out, but there's always the cats. i'm not that enthusiastic since the 23/2 lens isn't arriving until tomorrow and i don't want to judge the image quality based on the sigma 45/2.8 which is leaving when the 23/2 gets here.]

/guy

Edited February 27, 2020 by gteague

[gteague]

1 hour ago, gteague said:

i've been seeing a lot of mention of that issue but i haven't yet seen it. i shoot single point, hold, and reframe most of the time when face detect isn't appropriate or continuously hits the wrong subject. i tried it last night and it seemed to work just as expected--the box didn't wander anywhere.

perhaps you guys are talking about the touch focus? i can't use that anyway because my nose focuses when i'm using the evf. i did find that the manual focus stuff didn't seem to work in the multi-field modes in that when i autofocused then turned the manual focus ring, it didn't shift into manual--i had to hit the mf switch on the sigma lens. but in  single box mode, the switch to mf with the focus ring worked fine.

/guy

just found this in a long 'field trip' review by andrew tobin at http://tobinators.com/blog/2018/01/landscape-2/leica-cl-in-scotland-2018-part-5-last-one/

 

Quote

 

"A few more niggles about the CL have emerged. One is that the focus mode seems to inexplicably change from “Field” to “Touch AF” for no apparent reason. It is possible that I’m prodding something while not really using the camera. I know that it does it consistently if I connect the camera to the CL app on an iOS or Android device. But it also occasionally does it when I’m out and about. This is rather weird and I haven’t fathomed the reason yet.

On a related topic, when in “Field” focus mode, I occasionally find the focus point in a different place to where I left it. I think that this is due to the rear 4-way controller getting actuated when the camera is in my bag and not switched off (I usually let it go to standby rather than physically turning it off). I am happy to put this issue down to user error.

And the CL has a touch screen. I had completely forgotten about it. I never use it, but it doesn’t seem possible to completely disable it. I’d like to be able to completely disable it please Leica. I suspect it may be the cause of the focus mode and focus point location oddness."

 

bear in mind this was written just after release of the cl (i think) and supposedly doesn't include the subsequent firmware updates.

/guy

[gteague]

sadly, i don't think my choice of a half case and a thumb grip are going to be sufficient to allow me to hold and handle the cl. the thumb grip doesn't extend to the right far enough and there's not enough surface area for your thumb. and the half case doesn't give as much grip on the front of the camera as i estimated.

leica has their own grip bracket and thumb grip, but way too expensive as usual. haoge, a brand i've come to trust, has a grip bracket for 1/3rd the price and it has cutout for battery and a tripod socket which the leica lacks.

anyone have some recommendations for me in this regards? i'm loathe to abandon the expensive thumb grip i bought but perhaps it'll work better if i have a real hand grip on the front. luckily i didn't spend too much on the half case as i think it's not going to work out.

/guy

[gteague]

still familiarizing myself with the camera and since so many people recommended using the user profiles i decided to set some up to try out. i created one for /standard/ which is the  default color style, /monochrome/ which so far is exactly the same except for the style, and one for /panorama/. and i might add i'm delighted to have a panorama mode although leica for some reason limits you to panning only one direction in either landscape or portrait mode and of course both are backwards to what i'm used to using. oh well, at least the mode is there. i have a stitching program, but it's a pain to use and usually the in-camera created ones are good enough.

in any case, i'm not sure if hitting /user profile/ then scrolling to one of my 3 profiles is much faster than hitting /photo style/ and scrolling to one of about 5 choices, we'll see. but the profiles would be more flexible in case i wanted to always use, say, spot metering and single box af. will the profiles change modes as well? could i set the /monochrome/ profile for manual exposure, for example? the manual doesn't go into a lot of detail about what all you can store. i know on the s1 it won't always store every setting.

/guy

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[jaapv]

8 hours ago, gteague said:

sadly, i don't think my choice of a half case and a thumb grip are going to be sufficient to allow me to hold and handle the cl. the thumb grip doesn't extend to the right far enough and there's not enough surface area for your thumb. and the half case doesn't give as much grip on the front of the camera as i estimated.

leica has their own grip bracket and thumb grip, but way too expensive as usual. haoge, a brand i've come to trust, has a grip bracket for 1/3rd the price and it has cutout for battery and a tripod socket which the leica lacks.

anyone have some recommendations for me in this regards? i'm loathe to abandon the expensive thumb grip i bought but perhaps it'll work better if i have a real hand grip on the front. luckily i didn't spend too much on the half case as i think it's not going to work out.

/guy

The Leica handgrip is ergonomically very good but a less than practical design, as it has to be removed to switch the battery or SD card. I like to use it nevertheless, but only with longer/heavier lenses. For thumb support I prefer Steve Barret's Thumbie. Not only is it better positioned, it leaves the hot shoe free.

[gteague]

7 minutes ago, jaapv said:

The Leica handgrip is ergonomically very good but a less than practical design, as it has to be removed to switch the battery or SD card. I like to use it nevertheless, but only with longer/heavier lenses. For thumb support I prefer Steve Barret's Thumbie. Not only is it better positioned, it leaves the hot shoe free.

i saw that thumbie. seems to require adhesive so it'll stick to the top corner. i like where it puts your thumb though.

i'm currently chasing down a lim's design (i have their thumb grip) half case  which includes a metal grip as part of the design. it also has what they call a 'dovetail' which seems to be some sort of quick release for tripod use, but it's no use if it's not arca swiss compatible.

btw, i'm seeing a problem right away in using those user profiles although it wouldn't much affect anyone who has their fn and quick menus already set and doesn't change them. i realized when i changed one of the fn settings that i'd have to load, change the setting, and save each of my 3 profiles. that's a lot of button pushing for changing one fn setting.

/guy

Edited February 28, 2020 by gteague