Second portrait camera to complement Leica Q

[danielmfrank]

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On 3/10/2020 at 3:50 AM, Old Chou said:

Here is an update of my search so far.  The bad news is the Q has spoiled me and a good complement is yet to be found.

...

Next stop I'll probably try A7iii or Fuji's X-T series.  The testing also made clear to me that for shooting in a my usual indoor environment -- small apartment in a crowded city --  60 - 70 mm is probably more useful for portrait than 85 mm equivalent.

How about the new X-T4 with the 56mm f/2.1 Fuji lens? That's looking like a very good camera, and the 56 is supposed to be an excellent portrait lens. I'm thinking of that combo myself, sometime in the future.

[Old Chou]

Here is another update, for those of you who are still interested in this topic.

Last weekend I rented a Panasonic GX8 + Leica DG 12-60mm f2.8-4 to go with my Leica Q.  It's a micro 3/4 setup that could reach 120mm (full frame equivalent).  To my surprise I liked the handling of GX8 quite a lot.  The EVF is bright and autofocus fast enough for my use.  I liked the swivel screen and the JPEG color is generally pleasant -- I do see the "Leica look."  GX8 combined with the 12-60 mm lens is larger, but very acceptable considering its reach.  I carry both setup in a messenger bag all day easily.  Best of all GX8 shares the same battery as Leica Q!  

The experience also made me realize I'm looking at the wrong category of photography.  Because I mostly shoot kids, what I need is not really a "portrait" setup, as in fashion or model portrait, but more akin to wildlife photography -- chasing young primates around.  So good autofocus and reach are more important than say, bokeh.

All in all, GX8 was a good tool.  The image quality does fall short in evening and in door, when the light is dim.  But the total package is tight and responsive.  The dial was intuitive, and the lens in good light was capable.  I liked it a lot more than Sony's a6500.  

However, I ultimately decided not to pursue the Micro 3/4 route as I'm spoiled by Q's "full frame look."  The decisive moment came when I was looking at photos from both cameras with my wife.  She immediately pointed out that GX8's photos look flat and "cartoony", while Q's photos made her feel she's "in the moment."  Full frame felt more substantial and "three-dimensional" (her own words).  Note she had no photography experience, never owned a camera, and never heard of "color science" or "3D pop."  But she could feel the difference.

So I will probably pursue a larger sensor size, either APS-C or more likely, full frame.  Sony A7iii and Fujis seem like the remaining candidates.  Of course all pending on how the pandemic progresses, and if this hobby could even find space to sustain in the current situation.

[PhotoCruiser]

Im glad to hear that you made a progress in finding the correct camera for your use and that you understood that you need rather a sports camera than a portait camera.
I would never go back to smaller than full frame except in underwater photography where full frame can be too bulky for everyday use, especially when i am working as guide.
To be honest i don't need full frame as i am not a professional photographer,
but when i download and check the photos i prefer to enjoy the superio quality of every photo i take rather than thinking that the quality is soso lala.
Every photo i take with the Q2 make me think: Hey, i have the best picture quality camera in a very small housing, and that makes it worth for me to fork out 5 grand.
For your use the Q/Q2 is probaly the wrong camera, for "chasing primates" you need very fast AF with advanced AF modes, 24-70 zoom and a fast lens.
For example and as i know this camera very well, a Nikon D800 and the Nikkor 24-70 mm is easy to find also used and will provide you with what you are looking for.
Leica will have something similar with probably less advanced software gadgets but certainly better optical quality, but at a much steeper price tag.

Chris
 

 

Edited April 4, 2020 by PhotoCruiser

[robgo2]

I have used a full-frame Sony and an SL with top tier Leica and Zeiss portrait lenses. I got tired of carrying a large kit, so I purchased a CL. That was one of the best photography decisions that I have ever made. The CL is a dream to use, and the IQ leaves nothing to be desired. My favorite portrait lenses are the new Voigtlander 50 f1.2 Nokton and the 75 f1.5 Nokton. The FF equivalent focal lengths are 75 and 113mm respectively. The Voigts are beautifully made and deliver outstanding IQ, including a touch of glow at max aperture.

I also have a Q2, which complements my CL kit very nicely.  Both are compact, fun to use and produce great results.

[Ecaton]

The CL has decent face AF, offers an excellent 55-135mm zoom, but it is relatively slow. And fast AF primes longer than 50mm (equiv.) don' exist (yet?).

Kids, from a distance, best in class eye AF, indoors, outdoors - looks like you need a Sony A7(r)III/IV or A9. Sony, Zeiss, Sigma offer excellent fast 85mm and 135mm e-mount optics and for daylight the really good 24-105 zoom would be my choice.

Fuji's x-trans file require PP workarounds and are an overhyped marketing gimmick imo.

[danielmfrank]

23 minutes ago, Ecaton said:

The CL has decent face AF, offers an excellent 55-135mm zoom, but it is relatively slow. And fast AF primes longer than 50mm (equiv.) don' exist (yet?)..

https://us.leica-camera.com/Photography/Leica-CL-TL2/Lenses-for-Leica-TL/Prime-Lenses/Leica-APO-Macro-Elmarit-TL-60mm-f2.8-ASPH

90mm EFOV fast prime. Or is f/2.8 only medium fast?

I believe Sigma has also announced that they are going to do a line of compact L-mount primes for APS-C cameras.

[Old Chou]

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3 hours ago, robgo2 said:

I have used a full-frame Sony and an SL with top tier Leica and Zeiss portrait lenses. I got tired of carrying a large kit, so I purchased a CL. That was one of the best photography decisions that I have ever made. The CL is a dream to use, and the IQ leaves nothing to be desired. My favorite portrait lenses are the new Voigtlander 50 f1.2 Nokton and the 75 f1.5 Nokton. The FF equivalent focal lengths are 75 and 113mm respectively. The Voigts are beautifully made and deliver outstanding IQ, including a touch of glow at max aperture.

I also have a Q2, which complements my CL kit very nicely.  Both are compact, fun to use and produce great results.

I will probably come full circle to smaller cameras one day -- probably in the "larger is better" stage now.  CL would be ideal (with so many people recommending) if it had better autofocus and affordability!  All the other great lens you listed are manual focus.  I'm not confident in myself shooting manual with kids.

[Ecaton]

2 hours ago, danielmfrank said:

https://us.leica-camera.com/Photography/Leica-CL-TL2/Lenses-for-Leica-TL/Prime-Lenses/Leica-APO-Macro-Elmarit-TL-60mm-f2.8-ASPH

90mm EFOV fast prime. Or is f/2.8 only medium fast?

I believe Sigma has also announced that they are going to do a line of compact L-mount primes for APS-C cameras.

The 56mm 1.4 Sigma could be interesting for the CL. 

[robgo2]

8 hours ago, Old Chou said:

I will probably come full circle to smaller cameras one day -- probably in the "larger is better" stage now.  CL would be ideal (with so many people recommending) if it had better autofocus and affordability!  All the other great lens you listed are manual focus.  I'm not confident in myself shooting manual with kids.

To be perfectly honest, I find it hard to perceive any significant IQ difference between my CL and my SL or Q, and I'm not the only one who feels this way.

Getting back to lenses, the Summilux-TL 35 f1.4 is an exceptionally good lens with autofocus.  It is also well suited to portraits. I could say the same for the Summicron-TL 23 f2. Although the focal length is not classic for portraiture, I have gotten many good ones over the years with 35mm lenses. And I want to get back to the two Voigtlander lenses that I mentioned previously. They may be manual focus, but on the CL, I find them to be super-easy to nail accurate focus quickly. Also, they are absolute bargains at approximately $1000 each. When I saw their fabulous IQ, I sold my Summilux-M 50 f1.4 ASPH and have not looked back. That one sale more than paid for both lenses. (You may not be in a position to sell pricey lenses). Just consider that the Nokton 50 f1.2 is in Noctilux territory.  Anyhow, it was your original interest in portrait lenses that led me to bring up the Noktons. I hope that other people following this thread will find the information useful.

[danielmfrank]

16 hours ago, Ecaton said:

The 56mm 1.4 Sigma could be interesting for the CL. 

Yes, that looks like an interesting lens! Nice length for portraits, like the 56mm f/1.2 on the Fuji X mount.

[Archiver]

On 4/4/2020 at 1:38 PM, Old Chou said:

Last weekend I rented a Panasonic GX8 + Leica DG 12-60mm f2.8-4 to go with my Leica Q.  It's a micro 3/4 setup that could reach 120mm (full frame equivalent).  To my surprise I liked the handling of GX8 quite a lot.  The EVF is bright and autofocus fast enough for my use.  I liked the swivel screen and the JPEG color is generally pleasant -- I do see the "Leica look."  GX8 combined with the 12-60 mm lens is larger, but very acceptable considering its reach.  I carry both setup in a messenger bag all day easily.  Best of all GX8 shares the same battery as Leica Q!  

The experience also made me realize I'm looking at the wrong category of photography.  Because I mostly shoot kids, what I need is not really a "portrait" setup, as in fashion or model portrait, but more akin to wildlife photography -- chasing young primates around.  So good autofocus and reach are more important than say, bokeh.

However, I ultimately decided not to pursue the Micro 3/4 route as I'm spoiled by Q's "full frame look."  The decisive moment came when I was looking at photos from both cameras with my wife.  She immediately pointed out that GX8's photos look flat and "cartoony", while Q's photos made her feel she's "in the moment."  Full frame felt more substantial and "three-dimensional" (her own words).  Note she had no photography experience, never owned a camera, and never heard of "color science" or "3D pop."  But she could feel the difference.

How much do you use the zoom range of the 12-60? Is this more for the reach, or the ability to set different compositions from one distance? A f2.8-4 lens on m43 is like f5.6-8 on full frame, so you don't get any of the 3D pop or subject separation as you would with the Q, which also has an excellent sensor.

If possible, could you rent the GX8 again, but with a few of the faster m43 primes like the Olympus 45/1.8 or even some of the Olympus f1.2 primes? You'd get much better 3D pop from them than from the PanaLeica 12-60.

If the sensor and processing is a bigger factor, then the Sony A7 III with appropriate lenses would be suitable, but this results in a considerably heavier package than m43. You'll find it harder to carry an A7 III with 24-70 f2.8 and a Leica Q at the same time. If you went that way, you might as well leave the Q at home. I used to carry a Canon 5D Mark II with 24-105 and 35L everywhere, but gladly gave that up when I got into Leica M and m43 cameras.

[Bokeh Street]

On 2/17/2020 at 3:16 AM, KenBennett said:

I mainly use the Fuji X system, with my Q2 as a personal "everyday carry" camera. So now that you understand my bias.... when I want a second camera with a longer lens, I carry an X Pro 2 with the 50mm f/2 lens. The XP2 is an APSC size sensor, so the 50mm becomes a short tele lens useful for portraits. 

Same, I have a Q2 and a Fuji with 56mm f1.2 (85mm Equiv) for portraits.. Would love a second Leica, but unsure about manually focusing an M with say a 90mm at low f-stops..

[MFT-Lehrling]

I had/have a similar problem and can relate. I am not a native speaker but since we are sitting in the same boat, I will try my best to describe my journey and hopefully be able to give you some useful advice.

 

At the start of my quest I had some MFT stuff and a Leica Q later:

Bodies: GX85, G81, Pen-F

Lenses:

-Big: Olympus 12-40 F2.8

-Small: Olympus 17mm, 25mm, 45mm -all F1.8

 

My first camera system was MFT but last year I switched to the Leica Q, and oh boy, that was something else. I was lucky to start out with a small sensor and moved to a bigger one eventually. Doing it vice versa is much harder because you always have got the feeling of “missing something” (e.g. “3D-Pop”).

Most of my MFT stuff is sold since I did not use it anymore because of my new Leica Q. The Q is this intriguing little masterpiece that spoils you for all other camera brands (and models). I was quite happy with the Q, until I had some personal projects coming up, that were not ideal for my beloved Q:

Close-up portraits. I tried cropping for a while but that was not pleasing enough for me.

--> “I needed something else”/ classic GAS?

Unfortunately, I was open to manual focusing. Which is a big mistake if you are on a budget and adore Leica… there is only one proper solution for this: The M-System. For that reason, I bought a used M 240 and some portrait lenses, leaving most of my reasonable budget restrictions behind. I am now at a point, where I have over 6 Leica-M lenses… and I think I developed a habit for gear searching, that my beloved Q rescued me from. I still use my Q and think of it as the best camera for most of my needs.

Lucky you, for needing an AF and being on a budget. Now Leica is not an option anyway. From my point of view, you have several options, each with a different price tag. You said you already cancelled the MFT system for you, what might have been hasty. You tested the system only with a zoom. Coming from Full-Frame, it is going to pale in comparison, if your subjects are people and children. You never achieve a pleasing 3D-Pop with MFT zoom, being used to the FF-Look. But you will be able to, with MFT primes. (or at least come close enough for your task)

 

Like others posted above me, I will put out some recommendations, even if you are not that interested in MFT. Perhaps you will rethink it?

 

1.      FF: Sony A7 III with Tamron 28-75mm F2.8.

The only way to do it “on a budget,” if you want FF, best AF and versatile.  

Downside is obvious: Price, Size and Menu.

 

2.      MFT (Premium-Primes): Body: G9, GX9, E-M1 Mark II&III, E-M5 Mark III with F1.2 glass (Olympus 25mm F1.2, 45mm F1.2 Pana/Leica 42,5 F1.2)

You lose a bit on the compactness from MFT but will gain the half a stop from No. 3.

The looks of the images are superb. Like on the Baby-Picture with the Olympus 45mm F1.2.

But you cannot zoom (unlike Sony A7 with Tamron). And having 85 or 90mm indoors with playing kids can be a bit too much. This solution is not cheap, but a bit cheaper than No. 1.

 

3.      MFT (Basic-Prime): GX9 with Pana/Leica 25mm F1.4 (&maybe an Olympus 45mm F1.8)

This is my recommendation for you! You get the best of everything: Acceptable 3D-Pop (50mm F2.8 Equivalent), Size and Prize! Downside: no Zooming. But 50mm does it for most indoors with kids. And if you need more: swap the 45mm F1.8 on it, its tiny and dirt cheap.

 

4.      MFT (Cheap-Skate): GX85/G85 and Panasonic 25mm F1.7.

Buy a used one and try out the 50mm equivalent, if you do not like it you can sell it with almost no loss or upgrade to better lenses.

 

 

I did not include some other options:

-APS-C Sony (You did not like it),

-APS-C Fuji (I have no experience with it. But the JPEG Quality is outstanding, coming from multiple Leica& Sony users. Maybe this is worth a look?)

-APS-C Leica (too pricy in my opinion for APS-C)

-MFT High-End Zoom Pana/Leica 10-25mm F1.7/ Speedboster + Sigma 18-35mm (More likely to be good for Video, pricy, niche, bulky) 20-50mm F3.4 Eq.+Size+Price is just not fitting your buck.

-MFT-Sigma lenses. There are some great Sigma-Primes with F1.4. They are bulky but cheap. However, if AF is one of your key-Priorities, this is not it. In my experience, Panasonic lenses& Panasonic bodies, or Olympus Lenses& Olympus bodies, -combo works best with AF.

 

I do not know what the prices for the stuff in your area are, but in mine, Panasonic MFT-Bodies& Lenses are quite cheap, and Sony FF&APC-S is expensive. Even used. You can get great Amazon deals for the MFT-Stuff in general. I prefer buying used ones or snap a deal for a new one.  

Sorry for just “promoting” MFT-Solutions although they are not your first choice. My experiences may be limited but the times I tried Sony A7 Mark III, I was disappointed (Price, Menu, Size). AF was never my main priority.

My experience with M-Lenses let me jump to the conclusion, that equivalent of FF F2.4-F2.8 mostly fits my bill. I was really surprised by the 75mm Summarit F2.5. If you stop down the 90mm (or any other) Summicron half a stop, you are already in MFT-Premium-Prime territory (e.g. Olympus 45mm F1.2—>90mm F2.4). I do not want a lens for people-photography, that best F-Stop is worse than F2.8 in FF, given that we are in the range of =<90mm. I am quite happy with the result of a Leica Elmar-M 50mm F2.8 for close-ups or the “cheap” Tele-Elmarit 90mm F2.8. And this should be easily possible with AF in the MFT-World!

 

To put it in a nutshell:

Let the budget decide.

There is no Q-Equivalent for portraits or playing kids in motion.

Convenience of shooting should be a key factor.

 

I hope this helps you a bit,

from a Q-Enthusiast to another,

Cheers.

Edited May 21, 2020 by MFT-Lehrling
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