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Second portrait camera to complement Leica Q


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Suggestions for 75-135mm range:

micro four thirds camera with Olympus 45/1.8, 45/1.2, 60/2.8 Macro, or Panasonic 45/1.7, 42.6/1.2, or Voigtlander Nokton 42.5/0.95, the last being my favourite for these purposes.

As for the micro four thirds camera, the 16mp models are still pretty decent, although the 20mp models seem to have slightly better image quality. So from today's picks, you could choose a Panasonic GX9, G9, or Olympus E-M5 III, E-M1 II, Pen F. I use the Voigtlander lens with a Panasonic GH4 (15mp sensor) and it's very 'organic', not very digital at all. And liveview/EVF lets you focus without having to recompose.

Also in the micro four thirds realm, the Olympus 75/1.8 is considered one of their sharpest and best primes. That's like 150mm on full frame, just over the 135mm length you mentioned earlier, but it gives you the opportunity to snipe from a distance. Just make sure you shoot raw, because this lens has a kind of sharpness and contrast which seems more 'digital' than lenses like even the Olympus f1.2 primes.

Another idea is to get a Zeiss C Sonnar 50/1.5 and pair it with a M8. You'll get classic CCD rendering with gloriously dreamy, organic portraits.

Or a good condition M9 (if your budget goes that far) with a 75/2.5 Summarit. I use this as a portrait setup and like it a lot. The Zeiss Sonnar with the M9 is another decent portrait setup, but you want to be a little further from your subjects, the 75 is good.

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Here is an update of my search so far.  The bad news is the Q has spoiled me and a good complement is yet to be found.
 

I rented a Sony a6400 with a Sony 55mm /1.8 (~ 85 mm equivalent), as well as a Sony RX100M7 for a couple days.  Neither does the job.  Both have great AF for tracking running kids.  But A6600 feels flimicky and confusing.  It made me realize I don't like PASM control.  RX100M7 was too "unsubstantial" in hand -- for the form factor I'd probably just use a phone.  Both have malleable RAW files, but the default color is less appealing to me.
 

Next stop I'll probably try A7iii or Fuji's X-T series.  The testing also made clear to me that for shooting in a my usual indoor environment -- small apartment in a crowded city --  60 - 70 mm is probably more useful for portrait than 85 mm equivalent.

My dream complement setup for Leica Q now goes as follows:

1. Focal length covering somewhere between 60 - 90 mm

2. Not PASM control

3. "Substantial" feeling in hand

4. Autofocus, particularly for kids

5. Preferably full frame, but not quite certain

6. Plays well with Lightroom

7. Good viewfinder -- my benchmark is the Q

A "Leica Q 60 mm" perhaps?

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I`m in the same boat for while now. Meanwhile I think, I`ll get myself a used M9 with a nice 50mm, maybe later a 75mm. I tested a lot of different cameras in the last time (Sigma fp, X1D, Lumix S), but most of them are way to bulky for my taste. As there will be no Q in 50mm in the next time as I fear - I`ll take the M route.

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I'm sure any number of people must have suggested the CL by now.  A few bargains around used, 35TL obvious choice, but maybe Sigma 45mm 2.8 L Mount - or any number of manual options in M mount.  I no longer have my Q (quite miss it) but it played so nicely together with the CL.

 

 

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7 hours ago, Old Chou said:

Here is an update of my search so far.  The bad news is the Q has spoiled me and a good complement is yet to be found.
 

I rented a Sony a6400 with a Sony 55mm /1.8 (~ 85 mm equivalent), as well as a Sony RX100M7 for a couple days.  Neither does the job.  Both have great AF for tracking running kids.  But A6600 feels flimicky and confusing.  It made me realize I don't like PASM control.  RX100M7 was too "unsubstantial" in hand -- for the form factor I'd probably just use a phone.  Both have malleable RAW files, but the default color is less appealing to me.
 

Next stop I'll probably try A7iii or Fuji's X-T series.  The testing also made clear to me that for shooting in a my usual indoor environment -- small apartment in a crowded city --  60 - 70 mm is probably more useful for portrait than 85 mm equivalent.

My dream complement setup for Leica Q now goes as follows:

1. Focal length covering somewhere between 60 - 90 mm

2. Not PASM control

3. "Substantial" feeling in hand

4. Autofocus, particularly for kids

5. Preferably full frame, but not quite certain

6. Plays well with Lightroom

7. Good viewfinder -- my benchmark is the Q

A "Leica Q 60 mm" perhaps?

Well Old Chou, what you've described here is the Q2.  I know some have criticised the in camera crop feature as a gimmick but it works fine provided you don't need to print big.  I attached a quick grab shot of my granddaughter taken today.  I forgot to crop in camera, so I guessed an approximate 75mm frame in Lightroom.  Apart from the crop, it's straight out of the camera with no post processing.  Exposure was 1/125th at f1.7 and ISO 1600.

The Q2 might be above your budget for an extra camera, but why not just trade up from Q to Q2?  The cost to change should be no more than buying an extra camera (of likely inferior quality) and you'll have a one stop solution for all your photographic needs.

Food for thought . . . .

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18 hours ago, Old Chou said:

Next stop I'll probably try A7iii or Fuji's X-T series.  The testing also made clear to me that for shooting in a my usual indoor environment -- small apartment in a crowded city --  60 - 70 mm is probably more useful for portrait than 85 mm equivalent.

My dream complement setup for Leica Q now goes as follows:

1. Focal length covering somewhere between 60 - 90 mm

2. Not PASM control

3. "Substantial" feeling in hand

4. Autofocus, particularly for kids

5. Preferably full frame, but not quite certain

6. Plays well with Lightroom

7. Good viewfinder -- my benchmark is the Q

A "Leica Q 60 mm" perhaps?

There are very few cameras that meet this criteria as you do not want PASM controls, so you're looking at the Fuji X-T and X-Pro lines. If you're in a small apartment and want more of a 75, perhaps look at the Zeiss Touit 50mm f2.8 Macro, which would become 75mm on a Fuji X body.

It sounds like you want something smallish, portable, and won't cost like the Q2. So that rules out anything like a Panasonic S1, S1R, Leica SL or SL2 with the amazing 75 APO Summicron. I'd love a S1 with 35, 50 and 75 APO lenses, that would be amazing for work and big personal projects, but not for casual portraiture.

Perhaps look at a gently used TL2 with Visoflex or CL with the upcoming Sigma 56mm f1.4 DC Contemporary for L mount. This should prove a good aps-c portrait setup for close quarters, give you all the substantial feeling in the hand you could want, and plays well with Lightroom. The only thing is that the controls aren't direct shutter/aperture dials like the Fuji X cameras. See if you can try a CL or TL2.

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16 hours ago, Boojay said:

I'm sure any number of people must have suggested the CL by now.  A few bargains around used, 35TL obvious choice, but maybe Sigma 45mm 2.8 L Mount - or any number of manual options in M mount.  I no longer have my Q (quite miss it) but it played so nicely together with the CL.

Yes CL is the most recommended camera for this request.  I hope to try it one day, but it's hard to rent one from where I am.  Also the price is more than what I initially budgeted for.

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13 hours ago, T25UFO said:

Well Old Chou, what you've described here is the Q2.  I know some have criticised the in camera crop feature as a gimmick but it works fine provided you don't need to print big.  I attached a quick grab shot of my granddaughter taken today.  I forgot to crop in camera, so I guessed an approximate 75mm frame in Lightroom.  Apart from the crop, it's straight out of the camera with no post processing.  Exposure was 1/125th at f1.7 and ISO 1600.

The Q2 might be above your budget for an extra camera, but why not just trade up from Q to Q2?  The cost to change should be no more than buying an extra camera (of likely inferior quality) and you'll have a one stop solution for all your photographic needs.

Food for thought . . . .

I tend to agree.  Once I realize 60mm to 75 mm is more suited to my needs, Q2 became a more compelling option.  I actually do quite some "portrait cropping" on Q already, given my lack of portrait setup.  But I find the separation of object insufficient, as well as missing some autofocus.  Presumably Q2 works better.  The "cropping is the new zoom" idea is very interesting -- I'm not sure what I'll miss from a proper portrait lens.   But, as you said, a one-stop solution is even more tempting!

Great photo!  Thank you.

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3 hours ago, Archiver said:

Perhaps look at a gently used TL2 with Visoflex or CL with the upcoming Sigma 56mm f1.4 DC Contemporary for L mount. This should prove a good aps-c portrait setup for close quarters, give you all the substantial feeling in the hand you could want, and plays well with Lightroom. The only thing is that the controls aren't direct shutter/aperture dials like the Fuji X cameras. See if you can try a CL or TL2.

Another vote on TL2/CL!  Hopefully the Sigma lens would make this bundle more affordable.  

I fully admit that my criteria is a "dream" and such camera does not exist.  I just remind myself how lucky I am to find Q, which takes care of 80% of my photography needs. 

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3 hours ago, Old Chou said:

Another vote on TL2/CL!  Hopefully the Sigma lens would make this bundle more affordable.  

I fully admit that my criteria is a "dream" and such camera does not exist.  I just remind myself how lucky I am to find Q, which takes care of 80% of my photography needs. 

A secondhand CL or TL2 would be in the same price range as a new Fuji X or Sony A7 something, and the Sigma 56 would be around USD $500, I think.

If you were okay with manual focus, the Sony A7 III with Voigtlander 65mm f2 APO Lanthar might be another option. It's heavier than the CL, but a secondhand A7 III with the APO Lanthar would be more affordable than upgrading to the Q2, and stunning for medium range portraits in the apartment.

https://phillipreeve.net/blog/voigtlander-65-f2-apo-macro-review/

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@Old Chou There is one more suggestion I would make, not because it fits your criteria, but because I have had such pleasing results with it myself. The old Ricoh GXR with M-mount module and Zeiss C Sonnar 50/1.5. You simply wouldn't believe how nice this is for portraits. The Zeiss 50 becomes a 75 on the GXR, which has been optimized for M mount lenses with an array of microlenses. There is no Italian flag effect with any M mount lens I have tried, and everything is sharp, sharp, sharp, unlike any other non-M body I've seen. The Sonnar already has a beautiful organic rendering which is deliberately intended for portraiture, and with the GXR, it becomes almost magical.

The problems are that being an old camera, the shot to shot time is very long, it's only manual focus, and usable ISO tops out around 1600, 3200 if you convert to black and white. The sensor is only 12mp, and the viewfinder is extra, and not terribly good. But the body feels great in the hand, colours are amazing, and the overall experience of using this combination is fun. I've even used it for artistic portraiture for work.

GXR - Signing In by Archiver, on Flickr

GXR - Crystalline Eyes by Archiver, on Flickr

GXR-M - The obligatory flower bokeh shot by Archiver, on Flickr

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On 3/11/2020 at 9:03 PM, Archiver said:

@Old Chou There is one more suggestion I would make, not because it fits your criteria, but because I have had such pleasing results with it myself. The old Ricoh GXR with M-mount module and Zeiss C Sonnar 50/1.5. You simply wouldn't believe how nice this is for portraits.

Beautiful photos!  I particularly liked how the cat's eyes match the color of the background.  

I will definitely consider GXR if I give up on having autofocus.  It seems like a budget alternative to CL.  It's a pity no other manufacturer (other than Leica) provide native support for the legendary M mount anymore.

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11 hours ago, Old Chou said:

Beautiful photos!  I particularly liked how the cat's eyes match the color of the background.  

I will definitely consider GXR if I give up on having autofocus.  It seems like a budget alternative to CL.  It's a pity no other manufacturer (other than Leica) provide native support for the legendary M mount anymore.

Each time I look at the CL or TL as a liveview alternative to shooting with M glass, I remind myself that I have a perfectly serviceable camera already. Sure, the CL has better resolution, high ISO and operating speed, but the GXR has colours and a 'look' that is strangely close to the M9, despite having a CMOS sensor. I haven't seen anything else like it in the aps-c area except perhaps the Sigma DP1 and DP2 originals.

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I am inclined to use an M4/3 camera in addition to my Leica Q mainly for those times when  for the times when I need a longer lens. But unlike you I lack the discipline  to stick to one lens.......

The advantage of M4/3 is the overall package size and weight when used as a second camera, especially considering that longer lenses which you have specified are also very small by comparison with some other systems. Also many of the lenses are excellent in image quality. For longer portraits I really like the Olympus 45mm f1.8 (90mm equivalent) and Olympus 75mm f1.8 (150mm equivalent) lenses, both being excellent lenses relatively small in size and overall not terribly expensive, especially the 45mm. Another lens I love is the Panasonic 25mm f1.4. In my case I have the old version designed for the original M4/3 SLR system used with an adapter on M4/3 but the later one made for M4/3 specifically is as good. It would fit the bill as a slightly wider / more normal lens than the longer ones if you only need one lens and do decide to g in this direction and get a normal lens. (But as you say 50mm (equivalent) can require the photographer to get too close for candid portraits so for this purpose my taste runs to longer lenses also).

Also there are a large range of lens adapters available in M4/3 mount and that allows me to indulge my love of shooting vintage and legacy  glass when the mood takes me. Including my Leica glass (and Voigtlander M mount lenses). Given I have a good range of old non-Leica glass too this gives me many choices as absolute image quality is necessarily not a huge concern for me - I have something of a preference for "character" lenses in most instances and in any case always post process images for a more artistic rendering than given by modern glass straight from the camera. But a one camera body / one lens outfit is perfectly possible if that is what you prefer. In which case I can recommend either of the above lenses.

I ended up with a couple of these cameras. My first was an OM D EM 5 (first version) optioned up with battery grip etc. I love this camera for the way it handles with the grip, but this version does not have focus peaking, making quick focusing on MF lenses a bit slower and more difficult. When the opportunity arose I bought a Panasonic GX 7 which is also excellent and does have focus peaking (keeping my OMD as second M4/3 body.) Both have IBIS and both were bought as low mileage second hand units. Later versions of both cameras are even better and one day I will trade up.

The following were shot with M4/3 cameras (though mostly with legacy glass in these instances):

Shot with Oly 75mm

Cafe Colombia - Adelaide Central Market by Life in Shadows, on Flickr

Shot with Oly 45mm

Life as a Monk by Life in Shadows, on Flickr

Shot with legacy glass of various types

Quietude and Shadows by Life in Shadows, on Flickr

A Friendly Face with Coffee by Life in Shadows, on Flickr

Deep Thought by Life in Shadows, on Flickr

 

 

 

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Am 10.3.2020 um 04:50 schrieb Old Chou:

-- small apartment in a crowded city --

Given your use for the portrait camera a excellent and sharp wide lens and cropping would be the best and smalles solution,
but to be honest or my first choice would be a 24-70 as this would be mor flexible for the given use.
I am not a big fan of zoom lenses, but for some applications they are perfect, and your application is one of them.
Well for the brand and type of the non Leica portrait camera, there is a very broad choice from all mayor camera manufacturers,
you may rent some of them to check how they fit your needs.
 

Am 11.3.2020 um 02:32 schrieb Old Chou:

Once I realize 60mm to 75 mm is more suited to my needs, Q2 became a more compelling option. 

I agree also with first step is stepping up to the Q2 as it's simply the better camera than the Q.
The only backdraw is that you probably would need (considerable) more time to crop the photos as you will have mostly too wide photos.

Chris

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Here is another update, for those who are interested.  Last weekend I rented a Sony A7iii, understanding it's the most recommended full frame camera.  But oddly I paired it with a Voigtlander 50mm /1.2!  I was probably not thinking clearly and got carried away by Voigtlander's fame of beautiful rendering.  

Truth be told the lens is fun to handle and the image quality is lovely, even stunning.  With no AF, I quickly regained some of my manual focus skills from the film era.  However, the  main task I set out to do with my portrait setup -- shooting children -- failed miserably.  My hands and eyes just can't keep up with kids.  It became abundantly clear to me that manual focus was not the right choice.

On the other hand, the Sony A7iii was promising.  It was confusing at first.  I now understand the criticism of its menu layout.  It's also heavier than I like, but not unbearable.  It also feel versatile and capable.  The RAW file was fun to twist and the out-of-camera JPG was not bad at all.   I can see myself learning to use it effectively, but probably never "loving" it as I have been with the Q.  If I didn't get the Q first it's possible I'd start building a whole setup from an A7.  I think it deserves a second chance, not least to test its autofocus capability.  

Going forward I will strictly limiting myself to AF options.  I'll probably try A7iii again with a Sony or Zeiss lens, a Fuji APS-C setup, and/or GX9 (micro three fourths) if I can find one to rent.  Fingers cross that the pandemic won't further limit going out (I'm in a relatively safe country)!

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I have a Sony RX10 IV as a second camera. It gives me a range from 14mm to 600mm. With the Zeiss lens it produces beautiful images even B&W images. The Sony has lighting fast AF. With the 1 inch sensor I use it on Sunny days and bright overcast days. I actually had it before the the Leica Q. I bought the Leica Q kind of as a second camera but now a year later it has become #1 and the Sony #2

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vor 4 Stunden schrieb Old Chou:

My hands and eyes just can't keep up with kids. 

A very true discovery!
This is mostly the same for animal and sports photography  where a excellent and fast AF is a big help.
Also in underwater macro photography as floating it is very hard to keep the camera steady on the same distance and after a lot of out of/wrong focus photos
i setteled with AF-C and AF spot measuring.

In pre-autofocus times still a lot of excellent photos where shot, but the fast AF helps greatly to take unexpected  "one in a lifetime" shots as
the situation has already changed/gone as it takes too long to focus manually.

Chris

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I still use my vintage Lumix GX1, from about 2012, and pair it with several Panasonic/Leica prime lens, to include the 14mm, 20mm, 25mm Leica and the 45mm.  I know that what I have might not fit what everybody is looking for, but in my case, I can take the camera body and the 25mm and the 45mm with me as a supplement to the Leica Q.  I am just putting this out there as an example to stimulate ones thought process.  It has worked for me on several occasions, especially in areas or weather that I do not want to take my Q.

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