M3 Viewfinder Concern (Another One of These).

[Brancbūth]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Hello all,

I just took a gamble on an eBay M3 - my first Leica M - and had some concerns regarding the viewfinder and future “repairability”.
 

Some info: it’s a ‘61 single-stroke with a quick-load system installed, which I was drawn to. I have learned to always take eBay descriptions with a grain of salt, and was prepared for inevitable repairs and adjustments, but the description was pleasantly accurate - mostly. Aside from the usual “bright marks”, a desperate need for new vulcanite, and a CLA in its future, I think I came out alright. 
 

My big concern right now is the viewfinder. I have no frame of reference for just how bright an M3 viewfinder should appear, but this one is pretty damn bright and clear. When turned around, however, the viewfinder seems to have a pattern around the edges - similar to the way a soap bubble reflects light - something not mentioned in the listing. When viewed head-on the pattern does not really show. Again, this does not seem to affect the image In the viewfinder whatsoever, but I can only assume this to be separation, so I wanted to ask:

I’ve seen a lot of mixed information regarding viewfinder repair. On one side, many people have said “this is inevitable with early M’s, and not a big deal to repair. Send it to Sherry, DAG, or Youxin, and they’ll fix you up.” But another camp responds with “that’s a real shame - the price you pay for buying an eBay camera.” What’s the real verdict? For the price I paid, if an additional $500 for CLA and viewfinder repair will yield a camera that will outlive me, I will be very happy. If viewfinder repairs are precarious and/or “band-aids”, then it may not be worth it for me. 
 

Your thoughts and advice are very much appreciated.

 

link to photos: https://imgur.com/a/dDhP7Q0

 

Edited January 25, 2020 by Brancbūth

[spydrxx]

A bargain is what a bargain is...usually not perfect! But is it usable, reliable, accurate, and not in NEED of repairs. From your description above, and not accompanied by pictures, it sounds as if nothing is REQUIRED at this time for its normal enjoyment and use. Yes the vulcanite repair can make it gorgeous, Lord knows, I've brought back a number of decrepit oldies to their former glory, but it wasn't needed for functionality in most cases. If you want a CLA and refurbishment and can afford it without sacrificing other important things in life, go ahead with it. Personally, I tend to prioritize such issues on need and functionality, keeping something old working rather than a generalized..."just do it, as a normalized measure" YMMV. BTW congratulations on your purchase, I hope you enjoy its use as much as many M3 users have since its introduction.

[Brancbūth]

27 minutes ago, spydrxx said:

A bargain is what a bargain is...usually not perfect! But is it usable, reliable, accurate, and not in NEED of repairs. From your description above, and not accompanied by pictures, it sounds as if nothing is REQUIRED at this time for its normal enjoyment and use. Yes the vulcanite repair can make it gorgeous, Lord knows, I've brought back a number of decrepit oldies to their former glory, but it wasn't needed for functionality in most cases. If you want a CLA and refurbishment and can afford it without sacrificing other important things in life, go ahead with it. Personally, I tend to prioritize such issues on need and functionality, keeping something old working rather than a generalized..."just do it, as a normalized measure" YMMV. BTW congratulations on your purchase, I hope you enjoy its use as much as many M3 users have since its introduction.

I appreciate the reply. The M3 is something I have been swooning over for years. I definitely made the purchase willing and able to make any repairs required, so that’s not much of a concern. I guess that my main fear is that repairing the viewfinder, if it’s needed, will somehow compromise it’s clarity, and that it would be a temporary solution. I’ve read of many people who have re-cemented or re-silvered, but not much elaborate input on how their viewfinders function after the repairs, and whether the repairs are simply temporary. I understand the balsam degradation and subsequent VF separation is a glaring issue of the M3, and I suppose I’m just looking for some clarity on:

a) whether it would appear that that is what is happening with my camera

and

b) whether this issue can be successfully, permanently remedied.

 

Maybe I’m just being overly paranoid. Anyway, here’s a link to some photos of my M3, for anyone interested: https://imgur.com/a/jltT0C2

 

Thanks!

[105012]

I had one of my M3’s prism re-silvered by Kanto camera in Japan. This brought the viewfinder up to the standard of my other M3’s and it has shown no sign of any further troubles over the last few years. This camera has been extensively used, no shelf queen’s in my kit!

Edited January 25, 2020 by 105012

[Brancbūth]

1 hour ago, 105012 said:

I had one of my M3’s prism re-silvered by Kanto camera in Japan. This brought the viewfinder up to the standard of my other M3’s and it has shown no sign of any further troubles over the last few years. This camera has been extensively used, no shelf queen’s in my kit!

This is very helpful, and I'm the same way. No interest in putting this on the shelf. I will be out shooting every chance that I get, so I want to ensure longevity and optimal performance (for a nearly 60-year-old camera). Thank you for sharing your experience.

[Mute-on]

The bubbling may well be the Canadian balsam around the extreme edges crystallising. My M2 has it just visible if you have the camera on the right angle.  It hasn't changed in the 17 years I've had the camera (which is, itself, around 60 years old).  If it does fail, well, you'll know about it.  It may or may not in your ownership. If it does, I would also send it to Kanto Camera for repair. I have had them overhaul my BP M4 and two 35/2.8 Summarons. They are not cheap, but they are meticulous. 

If the viewfinder and rangefinder patch are bright and fully functional, you have nothing to worry about for now, and nothing needs to be done. By all means get a CLA from a reputable repairer, and see if you can wear out your M3 before you do ... 

Most importantly, enjoy your new Leica!

 

[M9reno]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Nothing to worry about, just a normal sign of the camera’s age.  Will you or I look as good as we do now in 70 years?  😎

By all means compare your viewfinder with another if you have a chance, but I doubt you will notice a difference in actual use.

My M2 has slight balsam separation visible frontally at an angle. No problem in actual use.  Think that these things will always be repairable in the future, should it ever be needed, even if it takes buying a cheap “beater” copy to use it for its parts. 
 

Enjoy your M3!

[Topsy]

If you bought it for using and it doesn't affect that using then ignore it and enjoy using it. If it gets to the point of interfering with use then have it fixed. As has been said it is an old timer so it is going to show signs of age. I recently bought an M2 from eBay only to find that the shutter wasn't working properly, It cost me £200 to have it serviced and it now works perfectly, that's the world of used equipment of any type not just cameras.

[Brancbūth]

Thank you all for the replies. It's a bit embarrassing to me that, after years of wanting and months of research - solidifying in my mind the nature of buying a 60-year-old mechanical tool and the inevitable repair and maintenance that entails - this weird paranoia and apprehension manifests when I finally have the thing in my possession and can see its age, warts and all. I suppose I just want it to last, and am being excessively superficial.

 

Anyway, I will take your collective advice and just go out and shoot the damn thing - hopefully for many years. I'm proud to own such a special and revered photographic tool, and am looking forward to being a part of this community. 

Thanks again!

Edited January 26, 2020 by Brancbūth

[Mute-on]

It is the nature of many of us, if not all, that we pursue and expect perfection, as much in a 60 year old camera as the images we can capture with it.  

I have learnt to embrace the history and patina of the older Leica bodies and lenses I have acquired, and I enjoy them all the more for it. If nothing else, their mechanical acuity is remarkable. Typically, they are in far better aesthetic condition than one could ever expect, but the is the sheer quality of their construction in the first instance.

You have acquired a piece of history, and are about to contribute to that history.  It is a marvellous and satisfying thing in which to participate. 

Enjoy it in good health!

J

 

[tommonego@gmail.com]

I inherited an M3 from a friend who I had gone to college with, way back then I had encouraged her to buy a Leica. Well it had been in their attic for 25-30 years unused. Shutter was a mess, I sent it of Youxin Yee, he first did a CLA, under $200, that didn't do it it still had a sticky shutter curtain, he replace that the total was just over $400, camera is wonderful now. I was surprised it had an M4 viewfinder, great for me as I like 35mm. On the forum's historical site folks responded that a lot of M3s had their rangefinder/viewfinder systems changed to M4-6 units because of separation. But if the shutter works, and the viewfinder has lines for the 50mm and 90mm lenses, and the view is not affected, you are fine, use it, have fun. BTW mine had the quick load and it is a PITA, I bought the traditional spool, now every roll loads even bulk loads. But I spent 40 years with M2s so I was very used to it. Experiences here differ.

[Pyrogallol]

You can replace the vulcanite covering yourself with a kit from Aki Asahi, I recovered a Nikon with one and it was easy to do. It will be more satisfying than paying someone else to do it.

I recently bought a Leitz 28mm finder very cheap which has some balsam separation but is still quite usable, just looks like little bubbles in the edge of the view.

[Brancbūth]

12 hours ago, tommonego@gmail.com said:

I inherited an M3 from a friend who I had gone to college with, way back then I had encouraged her to buy a Leica. Well it had been in their attic for 25-30 years unused. Shutter was a mess, I sent it of Youxin Yee, he first did a CLA, under $200, that didn't do it it still had a sticky shutter curtain, he replace that the total was just over $400, camera is wonderful now. I was surprised it had an M4 viewfinder, great for me as I like 35mm. On the forum's historical site folks responded that a lot of M3s had their rangefinder/viewfinder systems changed to M4-6 units because of separation. But if the shutter works, and the viewfinder has lines for the 50mm and 90mm lenses, and the view is not affected, you are fine, use it, have fun. BTW mine had the quick load and it is a PITA, I bought the traditional spool, now every roll loads even bulk loads. But I spent 40 years with M2s so I was very used to it. Experiences here differ.

 

I have been worried about the quick load system. It was definitely something I sought out, but I have since read pretty mixed experiences with it. I haven't had a chance to shoot, so have not been able to experience the process of loading. We'll see how it goes, I suppose. I really would like to keep the M3's .91X finder, but I shoot primarily with a 28mm, and plan to just use the rule of thirds with the 90mm framelines. I guess being inadvertently forced to switch the finder out for one with 28mm framelines, it wouldn't be the end of world.

 

I think it's great that your friend's M3 got a second life with you after all those years. I really enjoy hearing stories like that.

 

12 hours ago, Pyrogallol said:

You can replace the vulcanite covering yourself with a kit from Aki Asahi, I recovered a Nikon with one and it was easy to do. It will be more satisfying than paying someone else to do it.

I recently bought a Leitz 28mm finder very cheap which has some balsam separation but is still quite usable, just looks like little bubbles in the edge of the view.

I've thought about doing this. Is the process of removing the adhesive as involved as it appears? That is really my only reservation after watching several videos. I've also seen some pretty botched jobs.

 

On 1/26/2020 at 5:33 PM, Mute-on said:

It is the nature of many of us, if not all, that we pursue and expect perfection, as much in a 60 year old camera as the images we can capture with it.  

I have learnt to embrace the history and patina of the older Leica bodies and lenses I have acquired, and I enjoy them all the more for it. If nothing else, their mechanical acuity is remarkable. Typically, they are in far better aesthetic condition than one could ever expect, but the is the sheer quality of their construction in the first instance.

You have acquired a piece of history, and are about to contribute to that history.  It is a marvellous and satisfying thing in which to participate. 

Enjoy it in good health!

J

 

 This is very well said. I will certainly cherish my M3 for years to come. Thank you.

Edited January 29, 2020 by Brancbūth

[Pyrogallol]

The camera I recovered was a Nikon S and the old covering was thinner than Leica vulcanite so removing that may be more time consuming. I think it is a matter of taking your time in scraping the old adhesive off carefully so as not to scratch the surrounding chrome.

The new material from Aki Asahi went on easier than I expected and came with a second set of parts to use as a practice covering (in tartan pattern !).

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

[tommonego@gmail.com]

12 hours ago, Brancbūth said:

 

I have been worried about the quick load system. It was definitely something I sought out, but I have since read pretty mixed experiences with it. I haven't had a chance to shoot, so have not been able to experience the process of loading. We'll see how it goes, I suppose. I really would like to keep the M3's .91X finder, but I shoot primarily with a 28mm, and plan to just use the rule of thirds with the 90mm framelines. I guess being inadvertently forced to switch the finder out for one with 28mm framelines, it wouldn't be the end of world.

 

I think it's great that your friend's M3 got a second life with you after all those years. I really enjoy hearing stories like that.

 

The quick load is a little strange with the M3, it was designed not to be taken out from the camera, but with an M3 you have to remove the spool to reset the counter, so in practice it is not much different than the original spool. Except with the original spool you just insert the tip of the film and at least with my QL unit I had to insert the film up to the second sprockets before I would have a secure load. You can always take out the QL and use a traditional spool, I had to get mine on E**y, but repair places should have them. 

It was interesting, I had two M2s both needed shutter jobs and recovering, I had just sold to a son of a friend who wanted a Leica, he got them very cheap. Right after that our friend husband told me that she said she wanted me to have her Leica. 

[Michael Geschlecht]

Hello Everybody,

There is a common misconception that the snail in a Quick Load has to be "removed" to reset the frame counter.

In fact, it simply has to be "disengaged". Which is not a big deal. 

I have been using a quick load since 1973 & find it quicker & easier than the original spool.

To use a quick load:

When there is NO film in the camera: Pull the little "shiny" piece down a few millimeters/approximately 1/4 inch until you hear & feel the "click" of the spool disengaging & the frame counter resetting itself.

Then, with your right thumb in the opening of the snail: Push the snail back in so that the opening is between 09:00 & 12:00.

Then pull out enough of the leader to wrap the film around to 01:30.

Push the film into the camera body until the part of the film that is nearest the baseplate is aligned correctly with the film guides.

"Snug" the film with the film advance lever. Then attach the baseplate. Which has a film guide/locator attached. Unless it is missing.

Advance the film while watching the rewind turn. Then turn the rewind until it "snugs" to a stop & then release the shutter.

Repeat.

Wind film to first frame. Done.

Easier to do than it is to read or to write. The more times that you do it the easier it gets. Not quite as easy as doing it with later film "M" cameras. But substantially easier than doing it with the original spool.

Best Regards,

Michael

[Brancbūth]

21 hours ago, Pyrogallol said:

The camera I recovered was a Nikon S and the old covering was thinner than Leica vulcanite so removing that may be more time consuming. I think it is a matter of taking your time in scraping the old adhesive off carefully so as not to scratch the surrounding chrome.

The new material from Aki Asahi went on easier than I expected and came with a second set of parts to use as a practice covering (in tartan pattern !).

 

The main concern I have with re-covering the M3 is the switches. From what I understand, you need to tuck the vulcanite underneath the self-timer, frameline selector, etc. I think there may be a slight learning curve to doing it correctly, so I’ll have to build up the courage.

11 hours ago, tommonego@gmail.com said:

The quick load is a little strange with the M3, it was designed not to be taken out from the camera, but with an M3 you have to remove the spool to reset the counter, so in practice it is not much different than the original spool. Except with the original spool you just insert the tip of the film and at least with my QL unit I had to insert the film up to the second sprockets before I would have a secure load. You can always take out the QL and use a traditional spool, I had to get mine on E**y, but repair places should have them. 

It was interesting, I had two M2s both needed shutter jobs and recovering, I had just sold to a son of a friend who wanted a Leica, he got them very cheap. Right after that our friend husband told me that she said she wanted me to have her Leica. 

I am glad that I was able to track down an M3 with the quick load kit installed, because I think I would have wondered neurotically about whether or not it would be a vast improvement - a “greener grass” scenario. If I find it to be too fiddly, no harm done. I’d like to pick up a “original” take-up spool nevertheless.

[Brancbūth]

11 hours ago, Michael Geschlecht said:

Hello Everybody,

There is a common misconception that the snail in a Quick Load has to be "removed" to reset the frame counter.

In fact, it simply has to be "disengaged". Which is not a big deal. 

I have been using a quick load since 1973 & find it quicker & easier than the original spool.

To use a quick load:

When there is NO film in the camera: Pull the little "shiny" piece down a few millimeters/approximately 1/4 inch until you hear & feel the "click" of the spool disengaging & the frame counter resetting itself.

Then, with your right thumb in the opening of the snail: Push the snail back in so that the opening is between 09:00 & 12:00.

Then pull out enough of the leader to wrap the film around to 01:30.

Push the film into the camera body until the part of the film that is nearest the baseplate is aligned correctly with the film guides.

"Snug" the film with the film advance lever. Then attach the baseplate. Which has a film guide/locator attached. Unless it is missing.

Advance the film while watching the rewind turn. Then turn the rewind until it "snugs" to a stop & then release the shutter.

Repeat.

Wind film to first frame. Done.

Easier to do than it is to read or to write. The more times that you do it the easier it gets. Not quite as easy as doing it with later film "M" cameras. But substantially easier than doing it with the original spool.

Best Regards,

Michael

Thank you for taking the time to write such a detailed explanation. This is truly immensely helpful. I’ve saved a screenshot of your instructions for quick reference in the future.

[Brancbūth]

Hey all, I wanted to follow up on this post to let you know what ultimately ended up being the problem here. I figured it may be useful to anyone who may encounter this in the future:

I sent my M3 off to Youxin Ye for a CLA. Overall I am happy with his work, and I wanted to relay his findings regarding my viewfinder issue.

The verdict: Oil. Per Youxin’s email: “Someone worked on the camera in the past, ran some oil into the main prism area, contaminated a lot part of the main prism. I have the main prism removed, cleaned, removed oil, and assembled properly.”

So there it is! I have my M3 back with me, and am looking forward to posting my first shots here in the forums!

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[RayD28]

Glad it worked out for you.  The M3's viewfinder is my favorite feature and I'm sure for many others.