SrMi Posted December 30, 2019 Share #1 Posted December 30, 2019 Advertisement (gone after registration) With the capability to turn off LENR, SL2 has become a very interesting tool for long exposures. I have tested the camera with the Kase Wolverine filter system (magnetic). Here are my observations: Top LCD displays a countdown during long exposure! When there is not enough light, EVF gets too dark to use; focusing and framing are not possible (quick mount/unmount of magnetic filters is very helpful here). Like most cameras, aperture mode cannot properly measure long exposure. Instead, use manual mode and adjust the shutter speed using the exposure compensation scale. Max. exposure time is 60” with the electronic shutter and 30’ with the mechanical shutter. IMO: only X1D is suited better for long exposure, but SL2 may be enough for most. S1R is more limited than SL2 (60” max. shutter speed, or bulb mode; no countdown timer). These observations are from controlled daylight tests with an ND10 filter. 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted December 30, 2019 Posted December 30, 2019 Hi SrMi, Take a look here Long Exposure with SL2. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
thighslapper Posted December 31, 2019 Share #2 Posted December 31, 2019 12 hours ago, SrMi said: IMO: only X1D is suited better for long exposure, but SL2 may be enough for most. S1R is more limited than SL2 (60” max. shutter speed, or bulb mode; no countdown timer). These observations are from controlled daylight tests with an ND10 filter. At least with the S1R you can attach one of several compatible wireless timer remote releases which gets you round the'B' issue. However the S1R very low light metering is hopeless, whereas the SL/SL2 remains usable and reasonably accurate even in conditions which are completely dark to the naked eye (although the histogram becomes useless over exposure times of a few minutes). The low light metering and easy long exposure time were one of my main reasons for adding an SL2 to Landscape gear .... I've yet to seriously test the SL2 with LENR off ...... but I did find the shadow noise in very long exposures on the S1R without LENR pretty awful ..... 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SrMi Posted January 1, 2020 Author Share #3 Posted January 1, 2020 17 hours ago, thighslapper said: At least with the S1R you can attach one of several compatible wireless timer remote releases which gets you round the'B' issue. However the S1R very low light metering is hopeless, whereas the SL/SL2 remains usable and reasonably accurate even in conditions which are completely dark to the naked eye (although the histogram becomes useless over exposure times of a few minutes). The low light metering and easy long exposure time were one of my main reasons for adding an SL2 to Landscape gear .... I've yet to seriously test the SL2 with LENR off ...... but I did find the shadow noise in very long exposures on the S1R without LENR pretty awful ..... At 15' exposure, shadow noise with SL2 is awful as well (have not tried S1R as I do not have appropriate wireless timer remote). LENR must be on to get good results for that long exposure. 3 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott kirkpatrick Posted January 1, 2020 Share #4 Posted January 1, 2020 (edited) Is all of this being tested outdoors on a cold night, or inside a warm pub? The temperature has got to make a difference after 15 minutes. Bill Claff (photonstophotos.net) uses dark noise as part of his measurement methodology. I don't think he requires long exposures, but I'll check. I did his SL2 dataset -- the instructions are simple but the explanations are fairly complex. The bottom line is that I think there are usable noise comparison numbers on his site for all cameras that he covers. Edited January 1, 2020 by scott kirkpatrick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott kirkpatrick Posted January 1, 2020 Share #5 Posted January 1, 2020 Even if you use LENR, doesn't its effectiveness decrease with the length of the exposure, as an increasing part of the noise is just random electron activity and not a property of the sensor? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thighslapper Posted January 1, 2020 Share #6 Posted January 1, 2020 17 minutes ago, scott kirkpatrick said: Even if you use LENR, doesn't its effectiveness decrease with the length of the exposure, as an increasing part of the noise is just random electron activity and not a property of the sensor? On the old SL I tried (once ... never again) a 30min exposure + LENR and the results were noise free. A hour to take a photograph ..... I must have been mad .... 🙄 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
helged Posted January 1, 2020 Share #7 Posted January 1, 2020 Advertisement (gone after registration) 1 minute ago, thighslapper said: On the old SL I tried (once ... never again) a 30min exposure + LENR and the results were noise free. A hour to take a photograph ..... I must have been mad .... 🙄 30 min exposure with LENR is fine for the final shot, putting the camera in the bag and heading home, hoping for the battery to survive the second 30 min 'exposure'. Been there, done that, in minus 20 deg C. Otherwise, several body+lens pairs are 'needed'. Good for Leica, but not for my back nor vallet... Best LENR-wishes for the New Year! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SrMi Posted January 1, 2020 Author Share #8 Posted January 1, 2020 5 hours ago, scott kirkpatrick said: Is all of this being tested outdoors on a cold night, or inside a warm pub? The temperature has got to make a difference after 15 minutes. Bill Claff (photonstophotos.net) uses dark noise as part of his measurement methodology. I don't think he requires long exposures, but I'll check. I did his SL2 dataset -- the instructions are simple but the explanations are fairly complex. The bottom line is that I think there are usable noise comparison numbers on his site for all cameras that he covers. The test was done indoors at about 21C. BTW, a 50" test without LENR did not show any noise. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SrMi Posted January 1, 2020 Author Share #9 Posted January 1, 2020 5 hours ago, scott kirkpatrick said: Even if you use LENR, doesn't its effectiveness decrease with the length of the exposure, as an increasing part of the noise is just random electron activity and not a property of the sensor? I have not seen any image issues at 15 min and using LENR. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott kirkpatrick Posted January 1, 2020 Share #10 Posted January 1, 2020 Just to reinforce the no LENR folks, here's the SL2 without LENR at roughly my limits, 90 sec at f/5.6, ISO 50 Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! U1000746 by scott kirkpatrick, on Flickr Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! U1000746 by scott kirkpatrick, on Flickr ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/304884-long-exposure-with-sl2/?do=findComment&comment=3883224'>More sharing options...
scott kirkpatrick Posted January 1, 2020 Share #11 Posted January 1, 2020 (edited) Ok, I went digging for the long exposure noise. Here's a 20 minute exposure in the back yard at midnight, no LENR, rendered my usual way at 50%: Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! U1000752 by scott kirkpatrick, on Flickr SL-SC 35, f/13@1200 sec, ISO 50 The nasty little spots are actually there. Here's a scrap of the picture at 100%: U1000752 1 by scott kirkpatrick, on Flickr Still don't see them? They are tiny white speckles in the green leaves. obvious at 400% in the editor, but nearly invisible in any rendering that I would normally use. I also shot an 8 minute exposure and could see a few speckles, about 1/4 the density as in this frame at 20 minutes. Edited January 1, 2020 by scott kirkpatrick 1 Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! U1000752 by scott kirkpatrick, on Flickr SL-SC 35, f/13@1200 sec, ISO 50 The nasty little spots are actually there. Here's a scrap of the picture at 100%: U1000752 1 by scott kirkpatrick, on Flickr Still don't see them? They are tiny white speckles in the green leaves. obvious at 400% in the editor, but nearly invisible in any rendering that I would normally use. I also shot an 8 minute exposure and could see a few speckles, about 1/4 the density as in this frame at 20 minutes. ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/304884-long-exposure-with-sl2/?do=findComment&comment=3883302'>More sharing options...
SrMi Posted January 2, 2020 Author Share #12 Posted January 2, 2020 (edited) My evaluation is based on the quality of shadows when lifting them in LR (e.g., Shadows +50) and checking the image at 100% (iMac 5k). Without LENR, 30sec exposure looks great. At 90sec exposure, the shadows start to have some issues, but it is fixable in post. At 200 sec it depends on the the subject, but the shadows may have too many "hot pixels". I think that I will have LENR turned off when shooting under a minute. For longer exposure, I would use X1DII or use SL2 with LENR turned on. Edited January 2, 2020 by SrMi Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
spassig123 Posted January 2, 2020 Share #13 Posted January 2, 2020 Hello I don’t have a SL2 yet. What does LENR mean? Long Exposure Noise Reduction? I‘m German and found in German manual page 91. RAUSCHUNTERDRÜCKUNG BEI LANGZEITBELICHTUNG Jochen Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thighslapper Posted January 2, 2020 Share #14 Posted January 2, 2020 6 hours ago, SrMi said: My evaluation is based on the quality of shadows when lifting them in LR (e.g., Shadows +50) and checking the image at 100% (iMac 5k). Without LENR, 30sec exposure looks great. At 90sec exposure, the shadows start to have some issues, but it is fixable in post. At 200 sec it depends on the the subject, but the shadows may have too many "hot pixels". I think that I will have LENR turned off when shooting under a minute. For longer exposure, I would use X1DII or use S2 with LENR turned on. That sounds sensible. Most of the problem is in shadows anyway and only significant lifting shows things noticeably. I do wonder what sort of print size you could get away with without this sort of noise being visible though .... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott kirkpatrick Posted January 2, 2020 Share #15 Posted January 2, 2020 (edited) 4 hours ago, spassig123 said: .... What does LENR mean? Long Exposure Noise Reduction? I‘m German and found in German manual page 91. RAUSCHUNTERDRÜCKUNG BEI LANGZEITBELICHTUNG Jochen Same thing. A literal translation into English of the German would be "noise suppression during long time exposures." I think LENR is easier to remember than RUD bei LZB. The reason people feel so strongly about it is that the noise that is suppressed is hot pixels, obtained by closing the shutter and taking a SECOND long exposure with the same exposure time (up to 30 minutes). This is then subtracted from the image just taken. Works well, solves a not very large problem, and doubles the time to take a picture. Edited January 2, 2020 by scott kirkpatrick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
spassig123 Posted January 2, 2020 Share #16 Posted January 2, 2020 vor 1 Stunde schrieb scott kirkpatrick: Same thing. A literal translation into English of the German would be "noise suppression during long time exposures." I think LENR is easier to remember than RUD bei LZB. The reason people feel so strongly about it is that the noise that is suppressed is hot pixels, obtained by closing the shutter and taking a SECOND long exposure with the same exposure time (up to 30 minutes). This is then subtracted from the image just taken. Works well, solves a not very large problem, and doubles the time to take a picture. Thanks. Jochen Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SrMi Posted January 2, 2020 Author Share #17 Posted January 2, 2020 (edited) 5 hours ago, thighslapper said: That sounds sensible. Most of the problem is in shadows anyway and only significant lifting shows things noticeably. I do wonder what sort of print size you could get away with without this sort of noise being visible though .... Testing it with the print does make sense, but it is too bothersome for me to do it. I am happy with SL2 situation as I almost never shoot exposures longer than 1 minute. If I shoot longer, I must be aware of the issues that lurk in shadows and work accordingly. Edited January 2, 2020 by SrMi Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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