50mm Summicron compared to CV lenses and wide open performance

[paulcurtis]

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So i've used and own many M lenses but mostly voightlanders. I normally shoot on cine cameras with much larger lenses, my go to lenses are all APO on cine. But i have a small sigma fp and need to use this tiny cam for some B shots and unusual angles. One thing i have an issue with on the CV lenses is wide open there's usually a lot of purple fringing and when shooting motion it's much more time consuming to remove in post. When i said wide open i actually usually mean f2.

So my question is whether those of you who have had say the CV 50mm f1.5  and perhaps the newer f1.2 version AND the 50mm summicron whether the wider open f2 performance is better on the cron (assuming a late version, from the mid nineties onwards). Specifically with the smoothness of the Bokeh and the high contract aberrations. Or are they all pretty similar? The APO summicron is out of budget for this but that would probably be ideal...

thanks!
Paul

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[Ko.Fe.]

I've had 50 f1.5 VM and sold it mostly due to the purple fringing @f1.5 it was not a lot, but visible on portraits via large screen. But I can't recall if it was only @f1.5.

It also has sado-mazo stiff focus ring with sharp edges. Might works for video as long as you rotate it slow, but this lens was simply not made for fast distance change. It is not compact lens.

Any CV 1.2 is huge only 40 1.2 isn't this huge, but still not compact.

I have rigid, V4 and now V3 on digital M and they have no purple fringing. I don't like 50mm, nor I'm fan of how Leitz made them, but colors and bokeh are like nothing else.

[paulcurtis]

18 hours ago, Ko.Fe. said:

have rigid, V4 and now V3 on digital M and they have no purple fringing. I don't like 50mm, nor I'm fan of how Leitz made them, but colors and bokeh are like nothing else.

That's good to know. I have the CV 1.5 and there are some shots where i think it looks wonderful and others where the bokeh looks odd and inconsistent across the frame. Maybe field curvature at play. But certainly the purple fringing is the most obvious issue. So it's good to hear that the summicrons aren't like that. The V4 is the most modern design and doesn't have a focus tab? Optically, from the perspective of CA and fringing, is there much between the crons?

The weight of the 1.2 are fine (i'm comparing them to 1.5kg primes), just whether the 1.2 stopped down to 2 would perform better than a lens where 2 is the widest it can go.

thanks!
Paul

[Ko.Fe.]

3 hours ago, paulcurtis said:

That's good to know. I have the CV 1.5 and there are some shots where i think it looks wonderful and others where the bokeh looks odd and inconsistent across the frame. Maybe field curvature at play. But certainly the purple fringing is the most obvious issue. So it's good to hear that the summicrons aren't like that. The V4 is the most modern design and doesn't have a focus tab? Optically, from the perspective of CA and fringing, is there much between the crons?

The weight of the 1.2 are fine (i'm comparing them to 1.5kg primes), just whether the 1.2 stopped down to 2 would perform better than a lens where 2 is the widest it can go.

thanks!
Paul

four is with tab is with tab, five isn't. Four has odd flare, not sure if five as well. It is same optical formula. 

[TomB_tx]

There is some fringing even on Summicron v5 when wide open, on very bright highlights. Also on the Zeiss Planar - but the Planar is less purple and more red/pink. I think both have less than the Nokton 1.5, but none of them are bad unless you are really looking close.

If you want no fringing, maybe try the VC Heliar 50 3.5 ...

[easy_action]

Voigtlander have announced a new 50mm f/2.0 APO Lanthar lens, but in Sony E mount.

https://www.dpreview.com/news/8729229658/voigtlander-announces-upcoming-release-of-a-50mm-f2-apo-lanther-lens-for-sony-e-mount

If you can work with that lens mount it would probably give similar performance to the Leica APO Summicron for a fraction of the cost.

(I wonder if there will ever be an M mount version?  I'm sure it would be popular!)

[james.liam]

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42 minutes ago, easy_action said:

If you can work with that lens mount it would probably give similar performance to the Leica APO Summicron for a fraction of the cost.

Remains to be seen.

[lct]

2 hours ago, easy_action said:

If you can work with that lens mount it would probably give similar performance to the Leica APO Summicron for a fraction of the cost.

(I wonder if there will ever be an M mount version?  I'm sure it would be popular!)

Define similar, a bit better or a bit worse? . If it could be as close to the Summicron 50/2 apo as the VM 35/2 to the Summicron 35/2 asph it would be popular indeed, let alone if it can be more compact than its competitor.

Edited December 6, 2019 by lct

[easy_action]

5 hours ago, james.liam said:

7 hours ago, easy_action said:

If you can work with that lens mount it would probably give similar performance to the Leica APO Summicron for a fraction of the cost.

Remains to be seen.

Yes, I should have said 'might give' rather than 'should probably give'.

As a Sony owner my eager anticipation got the better of me!

[TomB_tx]

Here are some comparison crops at f2 to show "fringing" on bright light sources. Focus using live view to minimize "bloom" on light to the right:

50 mm Summicron ver 5 at f2.0

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Zeiss Planar ZM 50mm at f2.0:

[TomB_tx]

Now the CV Nokton (M mount) 50mm f1.5 at f2.0:

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And the same Nokton at f1.5 (same shutter speed - so a bit more exposure than the others)

[Simone_DF]

You may want to check Fred Miranda’s forum, there’s an extensive discussion about the newer Voigtlander 50mm 1.2 and its cousin 40mm with many examples. 

[paulcurtis]

Thank you everyone, especially @TomB_tx for the samples.

I haven't quite decided, i am close to getting a summicron but i'm not sure it's really that different to the CV1.5 i have already. Neither perform like my APO cine lenses but the question is whether one is a bit closer than the other. I find the bokeh of the CV1.5 a bit odd at times. The issue is that i can't be removing purple fringing in footage.

The CV1.2 is possible, i like the render but it will never be used in motion at 1.2, always stopped down and the bokeh suffers because of the blades.

Also i can't decide the pull of the summicron isn't just the desire to get my hands of a Leica M instead of CV...

The Zeiss is interesting, i've always avoided Zeiss as i've found all the SLR and CP Primes suffer really badly from fringing

cheers
Paul

[Mr.Prime]

subjectively, to me, the ‘cron has the most pleasing look of those three examples. The colours are more saturated, it seems slightly sharper. Perhaps some if it is slight exposure differences because the 4th shot with more exposure improves from the previous one.

Edited December 15, 2019 by Mr.Prime

[james.liam]

IIRC, the CV 1,5/50 is a modification of the pre-ASPH Summilux design. I believe it and the ƒ/1,1 have both been discontinued in for of the new ƒ/1,2

Edited December 16, 2019 by james.liam

[paulcurtis]

Well whether it's Leica envy or reality i will find out soon as i grabbed myself a V4 Summicron and pick it up later. I still have the CV so it will be interesting to compare.

I think for me i find the CV50 1.5 problematic in two areas - the bokeh can get unusually busy and i find some really odd field curvature or something up with the plane of focus - it's great for portraits but not so much in general use.

I will have to see whether i can get past buyers confirmation bias to see whether i do like the look.

Then i guess I'm looking at a 90 or 75... then a wider one.

cheers
Paul

[paulcurtis]

So just for others looking for the same answers as me.

I got a nice V4 summicron and, well, yes, it's a lot better than the CV 50. Very happy with the summicron, there was just something 'off' about the CV and bokeh and the field curvature that made for lovely portraits but not a general purpose lens.

I shot some scenes from a short on it, all hand held. Below are some frames, i was using the summicron with some of my cine APOs and it matches nicely.

The shots are from a sigmafp, saw uncompressed RAW cDNG UHD files (though the frames are just HD). It may be blasphemy here but that sigmafp is an awfully nice way to shoot M glass...

Now the issue is i want a 90 APO and a 28mm summicron...

 

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cheers
Paul

Insta: paul.inventome

[a.noctilux]

6 minutes ago, paulcurtis said:

...

Now the issue is i want a 90 APO and a 28mm summicron...

 

 

cheers
Paul

Insta: paul.inventome

That is normal.

 

...

And more ...later on if you are "curious".

So many "nice lenses" to discover out there (not only Leica ...).

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M