SL2 and GPS tagging

[jrp]

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[Photoworks]

I shoot many times with 2 cameras, only one at the time is capable of keeping BT-GPS connection with FOTOS app.

[beewee]

On 9/28/2021 at 10:43 AM, LBJ2 said:

I saw the satellite symbol but tried with no success several times during about a 90 min period to geotag.

Just wondering how you are checking to confirm you do or do not have geotagged metadata.

I noticed Lightroom CC for iPadOS has some weird behaviour in the way it exports photo with metadata. It seems if I use the “Export to Camera Roll” feature which is basically a shortcut to export a high quality Jpeg to my iCloud Photos album, it strips away the location from the metadata. The new iOS/iPadOS 15 has a nice short cut in the Photos app that allows you to swipe up and show metadata. If the metadata has location info, it will show up on the metadata info with a map of the location. It seems the only way to get Lightroom for iPadOS to export images with location data is to use the “Export As” function and then you need to go to “more options” and ensure that “Include Metadata” is enabled, and also “Location Info” is also enabled.

I’m not sure about Lightroom Classic or Lightroom CC on PC since I haven’t used it in years.

Edit follow up: Ok, I just noticed that Lightroom CC for iPadOS does have export settings available for the “Export to Camera Roll” feature. It’s not very intuitive in that you need to click on this vague icon on the far right side of the “Export to Camera Roll” button to enable location data.

Edited October 11, 2021 by beewee
See follow up note

[beewee]

On 9/27/2021 at 11:47 AM, beewee said:

I did a long 12hr hike this past weekend and tested the new SL2-S v2.1 FW and FOTOs app for geotagging. I didn’t notice any more battery drain than what I’ve experienced in the past and I also didn’t experience any overheating. That being said, it was breezy and the temperatures were between 0°C and 10°C for most of the time.

As far as the geotagging goes, I noticed that the initial connection to get GPS position (GPS icon on camera) was faster than the previous firmware. However, I still have the same problem as what I’ve had in the past where my use case involves me turning on the camera and taking a few shots, then shutting it off immediately after I’m done to conserve battery life if I know I don’t plan to take another shot for more than a couple minutes. In this usage pattern, I found that when I turn the camera back on a few minutes or tens of minutes later for another shot, the camera is unable to get GPS position in any reasonable time frame (i.e. takes at least 1 minute or more where I lose patience). Even whipping out my phone and going into the FOTOs app doesn’t seem to help all the time and I end up having to kill the FOTOs app on iOS and then start it up again. This gets things going again very quickly but it’s annoying and not the ideal behaviour - especially in cold temperatures where I have gloves on and having to fiddle with the touch screen on my phone.

I’m guessing the problem is that once the camera shuts off and the FOTOs app loses connectivity with the camera, it times out in the background and then only very seldom tries to reconnect. I should note that in my last hike, I had BLE remote start up on the camera disabled. In the past, I normally had this feature enabled in an effort to try to maintain a connection between the phone and camera. I’ll test with this setting enabled again to see if it helps on my next outing.

Here’s a bit of a follow up where I did a 10hr hike using the same SL2-S v2.1 FW and FOTOs app v2.4.0 on iPhone 12 Pro w/ iOS 15 for geotagging. I didn’t do anything noticeably different than my earlier 12hr hike except I enabled the Bluetooth remote wakeup feature on the camera to see if it can help with the bluetooth connection stability. The short answer is yes, noticeably so, but it’s still not 100% effective.

I compared the amount of photos that had geolocation data vs the total number of photos taken over the two separate hikes and it was as follows:

12hr hike with remote wakeup disabled:

• Total photos taken over 12 hrs = 265
• Total photos with geolocation data = 45
• Percentage of photos with successful geotagged metadata = 17%

10hr hike with remote wake enabled:

• Total photos taken over 10hrs = 195
• Total photos with geolocation data = 119
• Percentage of photos with successful geotagged metadata = 61%

Again, as far as how I used the camera goes, I don’t think I did anything remarkably different between the two hikes. I normally will turn on the camera, take photos (anywhere between 1-5 photos unless I’m on the summit and the views are good), then turn off the camera. The time span between periods where I take a small group of photos can be anywhere from a few minutes to 1-2hrs.

Edited October 11, 2021 by beewee

[LBJ2]

50 minutes ago, beewee said:

Just wondering how you are checking to confirm you do or do not have geotagged metadata.

I noticed Lightroom CC for iPadOS has some weird behaviour in the way it exports photo with metadata. It seems if I use the “Export to Camera Roll” feature which is basically a shortcut to export a high quality Jpeg to my iCloud Photos album, it strips away the location from the metadata. The new iOS/iPadOS 15 has a nice short cut in the Photos app that allows you to swipe up and show metadata. If the metadata has location info, it will show up on the metadata info with a map of the location. It seems the only way to get Lightroom for iPadOS to export images with location data is to use the “Export As” function and then you need to go to “more options” and ensure that “Include Metadata” is enabled, and also “Location Info” is also enabled.

I’m not sure about Lightroom Classic or Lightroom CC on PC since I haven’t used it in years.

Edit follow up: Ok, I just noticed that Lightroom CC for iPadOS does have export settings available for the “Export to Camera Roll” feature. It’s not very intuitive in that you need to click on this vague icon on the far right side of the “Export to Camera Roll” button to enable location data.

Hello:

"Just wondering how you are checking to confirm you do or do not have geotagged metadata."

You can see if the camera wrote Geotagging data to the image file right in the Fotos app on your mobile device connected to the camera before transferring any photos to your mobile device. Just connect the camera to the Fotos app. Tap on the image in the Fotos app for single image display mode, then swipe up on the same image to pull up the EIXF data.  If the geotagging data was written to that image file you will see it just above ISO/F/S/EV data again all before you decide to transfer that image to your mobile device or not.

FWIW. Since my last post on this topic Sept 29, 2021 in this thread, and after I updated the SL2 to ver 3.0 and performed a camera reset to get my Geotagging working again, my Geotagging has been working 100% ever since. As long as I don't let me iPhone fall asleep--no issues. For Geotagging I try to remember to set the iPhone to "never sleep". It seems the camera can fall asleep, as long as the blue light is blinking on the back Geotagging continues to work. But if my iPhone falls asleep then I have to go through the whole Fotos App reconnect again  a few times to get everything going again. 

Edited October 11, 2021 by LBJ2

[Bernd B.]

I have taken photos in a studio today. Before I went there, I did a complete reset on my SL2, then re-loaded the my settings and then, in the studio, I started the Leica-App on my iPhone. Hurrah, only 2 tries to connect to the SL2, the blue light was blinking properly and I was able to take stunning 5 (FIVE) photos in a row before I got the „Disconnected“-message on the SL2. And at home the next not-so-big-surprise: None of the photos had a geotagging. I‘m not using this sh.. anymore, enough is enough. 

[Bernd B.]

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Leica fails and fails and fails with its Foto-App. Even version 3.04 is as bad as the ones before. Connecting my SL2 with my iPhoneX takes 60 seconds plus X, the connection stays for some 3 to 5 minutes and then … guess you know it, anyway. Of course, I automatically send user reports to Leica, automatically there are all data in it like all Firmware-versions, hardware I use, SL2’s serial number etc. - but the responses are ridiculous, bordering on taking the customer's piss (sorry for my rude words, but it is just this way).

Got two times this answer from Leica‘s customer care within 10 days: „Please first check whether you have installed the latest firmware for your Leica SL2. Please also test with an SD card and only a few images on it or without an SD card inserted. If there are very many images, the display may take a very long time or the connection is interrupted (timeout).“ 

That's an indictment. What would you say to your car dealer if he advised you to always switch off the radio first so that the turn signal works reliably when turning?

[hirohhhh]

2 hours ago, Bernd B. said:

 

Leica fails and fails and fails with its Foto-App. Even version 3.04 is as bad as the ones before. Connecting my SL2 with my iPhoneX takes 60 seconds plus X, the connection stays for some 3 to 5 minutes and then … guess you know it, anyway. Of course, I automatically send user reports to Leica, automatically there are all data in it like all Firmware-versions, hardware I use, SL2’s serial number etc. - but the responses are ridiculous, bordering on taking the customer's piss (sorry for my rude words, but it is just this way).

Got two times this answer from Leica‘s customer care within 10 days: „Please first check whether you have installed the latest firmware for your Leica SL2. Please also test with an SD card and only a few images on it or without an SD card inserted. If there are very many images, the display may take a very long time or the connection is interrupted (timeout).“ 

That's an indictment. What would you say to your car dealer if he advised you to always switch off the radio first so that the turn signal works reliably when turning?

It’s not working… don’t stress about it.

[hotshew]

804 days and counting since starting this thread, and still no reliable GPS tagging solution for Leica SL2 owners. I hate so sound like.a broken record, but, again, proxying location via a smart phone for geo tagging photos is terrible design choice that probably originated out of the Leica finance department. It's much added complexity (compared to integrated GPS function) tied to a constantly evolving software platform (the smartphone) subject to bugs and intentional breaking changes needed to innovate, for regulatory compliance, etc. There's a reason why flagship cameras like Z9, R3, 1DX, etc., include GPS function even though the same vendors have developed proxy solutions (also unreliable) for their non-flagship cameras. Kudos to Hassy for going int the right direction by integrating GPS into 1DXii (instead of hotshoe attached solution, which is still far better than proxy).

Personally, I'd rather see no solution from Leica than an undependable one because it forces customers to find an alternative (dependable) one like a dedicated GPS logger or 2) simply live without and not be disappointed by camera failing to meet expectations. @beewee numbers are case in point. 17% and 61% tag rate over two separate trips. Laughably inconsistent with each other, and the 61% is terrible in absolute terms. My hat is off to SL2 owners committed to getting GPS working on the SL2, who most also be masochists or insane.

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Edited February 4, 2022 by hotshew

[Bernd B.]

In a nutshell, dear hotshew, in a nutshell! 👏👍🏻

[BernardC]

6 hours ago, hotshew said:

804 days and counting since starting this thread, and still no reliable GPS tagging solution for Leica SL2 owners

There's a dedicated FOTOS App forum now, which probably has more activity than an old thread on a camera-specific forum.

[hotshew]

2 hours ago, BernardC said:

There's a dedicated FOTOS App forum now, which probably has more activity than an old thread on a camera-specific forum.

Undependable GPS tagging is a camera issue not a FOTOS app issue. I can see why some people see it as an app issue because, afaik, Leica is now using FOTOS to proxy location across all of their models (exception S3, which is an old camera design with a sensor update, and VisoFlex attach for M10 owners). IMO, 1) trying to chase down a solution in FOTOS app forum is a red herring because it places emphasis on the symptom of a bad design decision that cannot be undone with the current generation of cameras and 2) by treating this as a smartphone app issue, customers are supporting the notion that proxying location via FOTOS is an acceptable solution (assuming Leica is monitoring/listening). The message shold be clear. Leica customers demand dependable geotagging from their cameras, using an integrated solution that does not depend on a smartphone (for a multitude of reasons, not just dependability, such as preserving battery, privacy, convenience, simplicity, etc.). IMO, this is best accomplished by not losing sight of this being a camera issue and directing the conversation accordingly.

Edited February 4, 2022 by hotshew

[hirohhhh]

Every one of my first 30,000+ photos were geotagged, until I bought SL2. I continued doing it manually for 2-3 months, more out of habit, rather than need, and then I gave up. And nothing happened. I never actually needed this feature as much as I thought. Now I use M10-R and I don’t even think about geotagging anymore. My photos are well organized anyway, so in reality, I don’t need it. Yes, it’s nice to have if it’s already there, like on the original SL, but wasting time doing it manually and stressing about the freaking app, IMHO, not worth at all.

Try to make a way around it, use keywords for the most frequent locations, and from there, you’ll pretty much easily find the photo you’re looking for.

[Darrell]

I didn’t know that I wanted geotagging till I bought my SL (601) a few months ago. Took it to an air show at a good sized airport. Pulled up the group of photos on a GPS map in LR and my jaw dropped. I could instantly see where each photo was taken across that large airport. As much as I wandered that day did not matter as it was easy to find the photos taken in any specific region of the airport. The SL2 has more resolution, but the low light performance is not any better and the SL2-S has better low light performance but no improvement in resolution. Neither camera has GPS, so not tempted to upgrade. 

The improvements in the M11 over the M10 are making me salivate over what an SL3 might bring to the table, but a small voice in the back of my head is saying, “but it probably won’t have GPS.”

[hotshew]

9 hours ago, hirohhhh said:

I never actually needed this feature as much as I thought. Now I use M10-R and I don’t even think about geotagging anymore.

I shoot manual most the time, even on my SL2, making autofocus a nice to have feature for me. Since autofocus is only a nice to have for me, I suppose that means it should be for everybody else too. (As an aside, for situations where I depend on A/F, I shoot Canon).

1 hour ago, Darrell said:

Pulled up the group of photos on a GPS map in LR and my jaw dropped. I could instantly see where each photo was taken across that large airport. As much as I wandered that day did not matter as it was easy to find the photos taken in any specific region of the airport.

Agreed. Geotagging can be really handy when always on and dependable. In many situations, it's much easier to remember where you took a photo than when you took a photo. Add photos to LR or your favorite cloud provider, and you've got a very efficient find mechanism, especially when combined with image recognition (which location info can also be used to help improve model accuracy), eliminating the need for error prone and tedious user input tagging. There are many ways the location info can be leveraged, not always obvious. It's much better to have location metadata and not need it, than to not have it and need it (something one might not realize until down the road).

Edited February 5, 2022 by hotshew

[hirohhhh]

43 minutes ago, hotshew said:

I shoot manual most the time, even on my SL2, making autofocus a nice to have feature for me. Since autofocus is only a nice to have for me, I suppose that means it should be for everybody else too. (As an aside, for situations where I depend on A/F, I shoot Canon).

Even if the camera has everything possibly can, we'll find something to complain about. There's no point being angry to Leica because new cameras doesn't have GPS. We can either accept it, or chose another camera. People were furious about the iPhone notch at the begining, but what's the point? Apple put it for the reason, and we can either accept it, or chose another company. I'd also like to have GPS on SL2 and M10-R, but since we don't have it, I don't care. I won't use SL solely because of the GPS. That's me, maybe someone else will put GPS over other features.

[hotshew]

Who's angry?. I love my SL2 (read my earlier posts), but I gave up on using its GPS feature long ago (roughly 800 days ago, actually). Successful companies listen to their customers, and critical feedback is paramount to how they stay competitive by using it to continuously improve their products. You're welcome to sit on the sidelines and work around problems, but realize that the next batch of camera improvements and innovations that come along are built, in part, based on the triaging of top customer complaints. If you care about something, it pays to make your voice heard.

P.S. Your iPhone notch example doesn't work here. It was a design paradigm shift that a lot of people hated initially, and many still do (which is why Apple is shrinking it), but there's nothing functionally broken about it. On the other hand, if location services suddenly stopped working on people' iPhones or became undependable, I'm confident most would be up in arms over it.

PPS. Since you indicated you'd like to have GPS on your M10R, you can. In addition to being an EVF, the VisoFlex adds a GPS receiver to your camera, and therefore geotagging does not depend on FOTOS. I find it works quite well on my M10R and M10M, and you won't find any posts from me complaining about it, or the M system in general.

Edited February 5, 2022 by hotshew

[Fang]

13 hours ago, hirohhhh said:

Every one of my first 30,000+ photos were geotagged, until I bought SL2. I continued doing it manually for 2-3 months, more out of habit, rather than need, and then I gave up. And nothing happened. I never actually needed this feature as much as I thought. Now I use M10-R and I don’t even think about geotagging anymore. My photos are well organized anyway, so in reality, I don’t need it. Yes, it’s nice to have if it’s already there, like on the original SL, but wasting time doing it manually and stressing about the freaking app, IMHO, not worth at all.

Try to make a way around it, use keywords for the most frequent locations, and from there, you’ll pretty much easily find the photo you’re looking for.

I am a traveller. I  have been to Siberia, Mongolia, Kyrgyzstan, Kazakhstan and other remote places on the silk road where there are no internet connections.  GPS functions on my SL works and I am able to recollect where some interesting shots were taken.  I can't imagine not having the GPS function on my camera hence I am not upgrading to the SL2 and hope Leica will listen to the customers and have the GPS function of the SL3.

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[BernardC]

19 hours ago, hotshew said:

Undependable GPS tagging is a camera issue not a FOTOS app issue.

I'm not sure that you understood my point, which is that there's a forum on this site where GPS issues are actively discussed.

[jrp]

Well they are discussed, how actively is a matter of appreciation, but with the same result, and no sign that Leica has any plans to address the limitations of the current approach.