SL2 and GPS tagging

[hotshew]

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Since I figured out how to use Geotagging on my SL2 ver 2.0, in my case I had to reset the camera to get Geotagging working properly. All has been well, consistent and I find GPS through my iPhone connected to my SL2 is very consistent even inside my house. The same continues for me after the SL2 vers 3.0 update.

Thanks for sharing. Sound encouraging. I'll give it another chance. Indeed, using smart phone to proxy location has the benefit of using location services to get position instead of needing to rely exclusively on GPS, so works in buildings, etc. I'd still much rather have camera integrated GPS function through! 🙂

Edited September 26, 2021 by hotshew

[Slender]

17 hours ago, LBJ2 said:

Since I figured out how to use Geotagging on my SL2 ver 2.0, in my case I had to reset the camera to get Geotagging working properly. All has been well, consistent and I find GPS through my iPhone connected to my SL2 is very consistent even inside my house. The same continues for me after the SL2 vers 3.0 update.

*I have noticed, I Must remember to disconnect the SL2 or the M10 from the Fotos app directly when I no longer want Geotagging or I will have connection issues the next time I try to set up and connect the SL2 or the M10-R/Visoflex else I have to power off the iPhone and the camera to get things connected again if I forget to disconnect the service from the Fotos app. 

Does it drain the battery significantly more, do you think?

[LBJ2]

1 hour ago, Slender said:

Does it drain the battery significantly more, do you think?

I haven't noticed any great differences in battery drain, but also not paid attention to battery drain while Geotagging. Probably something I should be able to estimate, next few shoots. 

[beewee]

I did a long 12hr hike this past weekend and tested the new SL2-S v2.1 FW and FOTOs app for geotagging. I didn’t notice any more battery drain than what I’ve experienced in the past and I also didn’t experience any overheating. That being said, it was breezy and the temperatures were between 0°C and 10°C for most of the time.

As far as the geotagging goes, I noticed that the initial connection to get GPS position (GPS icon on camera) was faster than the previous firmware. However, I still have the same problem as what I’ve had in the past where my use case involves me turning on the camera and taking a few shots, then shutting it off immediately after I’m done to conserve battery life if I know I don’t plan to take another shot for more than a couple minutes. In this usage pattern, I found that when I turn the camera back on a few minutes or tens of minutes later for another shot, the camera is unable to get GPS position in any reasonable time frame (i.e. takes at least 1 minute or more where I lose patience). Even whipping out my phone and going into the FOTOs app doesn’t seem to help all the time and I end up having to kill the FOTOs app on iOS and then start it up again. This gets things going again very quickly but it’s annoying and not the ideal behaviour - especially in cold temperatures where I have gloves on and having to fiddle with the touch screen on my phone.

I’m guessing the problem is that once the camera shuts off and the FOTOs app loses connectivity with the camera, it times out in the background and then only very seldom tries to reconnect. I should note that in my last hike, I had BLE remote start up on the camera disabled. In the past, I normally had this feature enabled in an effort to try to maintain a connection between the phone and camera. I’ll test with this setting enabled again to see if it helps on my next outing.

Edited September 27, 2021 by beewee

[hotshew]

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Does it drain the battery significantly more, do you think?

Enabling bluetooth is going increase battery drain, but the incremental power draw should be small (sort of like turning on the A/C in your car). Since GPS location is being proxied via the phone over the Bluetooth connection, there'll be very little or no additional draw on your camera (your smartphone pays that tax).

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However, I still have the same problem as what I’ve had in the past where my use case involves me turning on the camera and taking a few shots, then shutting it off immediately after I’m done to conserve battery life if I know I don’t plan to take another shot for more than a couple minutes. 

This behavior exists even when the camera auto-powers off (does not need to be flipping the ON/OFF switch), so will need to disable auto-power to avoid the constant service reconnection lag. When it "works", it takes my SL2 (FW v3.0, Fotos 2.4.0) about 8s for Bluetooth to reconnect (based on the Bluetooth indictor appearing) and another 4-30s for the GPS indicator to appear, signaling that the GPS tagging feature is available. Often times I need to intervene by brining re-opening the Fotos app to get a GPS tagging working in again.

In a nutshell, what I've seen so far is that the GPS function works OK after the camera is powered on (and stays on) once the initial GPS service connection in established. If the camera powers off (automatically or via ON/OFF switch), then it can take some interaction on the user's part to get the GPS up and going again, resulting in a poor user experience and, inevitably, untagged photos.

If possible, it would be best if Leica persisted the Bluetooth connection even while the camera is off to address the startup latency issue. Or even better yet, go back to providing integrated GPS function into their cameras. Much simpler and more reliable.

[beewee]

57 minutes ago, hotshew said:

If possible, it would be best if Leica persisted the Bluetooth connection even while the camera is off to address the startup latency issue.

The camera is never completely powered down even when the power switch is set to off. If you enable the remote wake-up feature via the bluetooth settings on the camera, it will try to maintain a connection to the phone as I mentioned earlier. I haven’t had a chance to test with this feature enabled on the latest v2.1 firmware on the SL2-S but it didn’t seem to help on the earlier v2.0 firmware.

[hotshew]

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1 hour ago, beewee said:

The camera is never completely powered down even when the power switch is set to off. If you enable the remote wake-up feature via the bluetooth settings on the camera, it will try to maintain a connection to the phone as I mentioned earlier. I haven’t had a chance to test with this feature enabled on the latest v2.1 firmware on the SL2-S but it didn’t seem to help on the earlier v2.0 firmware.

I previously enabled the remote wake feature, but it makes not difference AFAICT, except that provides the ability to remotely turn on the camera from the Leica app. Nice feature, which does exactly what it says it does, but it does not appear to help with addressing the connectivity issues and start-up latency for GPS tagging to become available after the camera powers on.

Edited September 27, 2021 by hotshew

[beewee]

58 minutes ago, hotshew said:

I previously enabled the remote wake feature, but it makes not difference AFAICT, except that provides the ability to remotely turn on the camera from the Leica app. Nice feature, which does exactly what it says it does, but it does not appear to help with addressing the connectivity issues and start-up latency for GPS tagging to become available after the camera powers on.

That’s good to know. I’ll test it out in my next outing but your observations doesn’t completely surprise me. It all depends on how the geotagging and bluetooth connection mechanism is implemented on both ends of the connection.

[hotshew]

25 minutes ago, beewee said:

It all depends on how the geotagging and bluetooth connection mechanism is implemented on both ends of the connection.

Exactly. We can only speculate about such things : -)

[LBJ2]

The geotagging consistency I reported earlier in this thread, fell out the window.

I specifically planned some time to attempt to see if I noticed any increase in battery usage while geotagging, but today geotagging didn't want to work at all with the SL2 v3 + iPhone. Deja vu, I saw the satellite symbol but tried with no success several times during about a 90 min period to geotag. I went through the motions cycling iPhone and Camera on off, took camera battery out/replaced with a full charged battery and multiple restarts on both devices. Nada.

As soon as I arrived home, I went to work and tried all the usual as stated above  and again. Nada x 2. Just like with v2.0 SL2 firmware, I had to do a complete reset on the SL2 to get Geotagging working again.

FWIW as I posted, early geotagging has been working as expected since the SL2 ver 3.0 update. The only thing I did between the last successful geotagging session and this current attempt was to set up three new profiles on the SL2 as well as experiment with some of the new v3.0 menu features. No idea if there is any correlation or if geotagging stopped working for some other reason. 

[Bernd B.]

See, not matter what firmware, this geotagging-thing is not working. Leica does not get it done, that‘s it. So I keep on using a gps-tracker with my iPhone and tag the data later via Lightroom to my photo-files. Life‘s too short to waste time on crappy apps. 

[hotshew]

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I saw the satellite symbol but tried with no success several times during about a 90 min period to geotag

This is surprising if interpreting correctly. You're saying that even when the GPS indicator appears on the camera that some of the images captured contain no location metadata? I haven't seen that yet, but I haven't been on trip lately (COVID) where geotagging is something I care about so not top of mind for me. The additional cognitive load to constantly check that the camera has an active connection to the phone's Bluetooth location service is already bad enough, but if what you're saying is what I think you're saying then the feature is worse that nothing at all.

[Bernd B.]

Yes, to see that sign and getting no location-metadata is, what you usually get when using this app. Annoying, but „normal“. 

[LBJ2]

17 hours ago, Bernd B. said:

See, not matter what firmware, this geotagging-thing is not working. Leica does not get it done, that‘s it. So I keep on using a gps-tracker with my iPhone and tag the data later via Lightroom to my photo-files. Life‘s too short to waste time on crappy apps. 

I am not so quick to blame geotagging on the Fotos apps alone when these problems occur. It could very well be the iPhone ! 

For example. I typically pair the iPhone to my Apple watch and my car on a daily/regular basis. Occasionally, that connection just stops working for no known reason. I can see the iPhone is connected to either my car or Apple watch in their respective menus, but in reality the devices are not paired and not functioning. So I have to go through similar motions I described earlier and turn off the car or Apple Watch and turn off the iPhone and then restart everything for a complete pairing again. Sometimes I have to do this a few times and of course always a PITA because I rely daily on these devices syncing with each other. 

Lot of moving pieces to consider HW and SW and regular firmware updates particularly on the iPhone and each of these devices relies on the other to maintain a consistent connection. 

[msh58]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb LBJ2:

I am not so quick to blame geotagging on the Fotos apps alone when these problems occur. It could very well be the iPhone ! 

For example. I typically pair the iPhone to my Apple watch and my car on a daily/regular basis. Occasionally, that connection just stops working for no known reason. I can see the iPhone is connected to either my car or Apple watch in their respective menus, but in reality the devices are not paired and not functioning. So I have to go through similar motions I described earlier and turn off the car or Apple Watch and turn off the iPhone and then restart everything for a complete pairing again. Sometimes I have to do this a few times and of course always a PITA because I rely daily on these devices syncing with each other. 

Lot of moving pieces to consider HW and SW and regular firmware updates particularly on the iPhone and each of these devices relies on the other to maintain a consistent connection. 

While still happily using my original SL with built-in GPS I have periodically followed these disappointing stories of SL2 geotagging. There are probably good reasons why Leica decided against built-in GPS on SL2 (space constraints? tegulatory issues?) but it certainly seems usability, reliability, and simplicity were not high on their list. Or, maybe it was just difficult to evaluate the promises of the software/ firmware developers…,

Perhaps a couple of software engineers should be sent to shadow a user on a full day hike to observe what actually happens rather than letting them rely on bug reports

 

[beewee]

4 hours ago, msh58 said:

While still happily using my original SL with built-in GPS I have periodically followed these disappointing stories of SL2 geotagging. There are probably good reasons why Leica decided against built-in GPS on SL2 (space constraints? tegulatory issues?) but it certainly seems usability, reliability, and simplicity were not high on their list. Or, maybe it was just difficult to evaluate the promises of the software/ firmware developers…,

Perhaps a couple of software engineers should be sent to shadow a user on a full day hike to observe what actually happens rather than letting them rely on bug reports

 

There are pros and cons to having GPS in camera vs offloaded to the phone.

On paper, the phone option is better (if it worked as it should on paper) since the phone has many more ways to get its position. Whether it’s through WiFi, GPS, cellular networks, and it can also leverage the data networks to assist in positioning off various radios and sensors and fusing all the information to get the most reliable and accurate position possible using all available information. Even though GPS can operate as a standalone positioning method, even it benefits from a data connection to get assistance data such as time, rough position, and satellite information that helps the receiver to get a position lock much sooner than otherwise achievable as a standalone receiver but this would not be possible since the camera doesn’t have a data connection except through the phone (if connected). So I can see why Leica wanted to go the route of using the phone as a source of positioning data.

The problem is not so much the fundamental concept but it is specific to the way it has been implemented. Only Leica knows where the bottle neck lies, whether it’s in the iOS/Android developer frameworks, phone hardware, camera firmware, radio limitations, power consumption limitations, antenna performance, camera power stability, etc.. There are tradeoffs to be made along the way and all the way down the chain.

All that being said, as the end customer, I do think we deserve a more reliable system than what is currently being provided. I can see that Leica is putting in effort to address this over the past year or so but it is still not where it needs to be.

It’s also worth mentioning that, as Leica prides itself on designing cameras that do not get in the way of the photographer, its implementation of geolocation definitely goes against this ethos. So I surely hope that Leica would make their geolocation feature work as seamlessly as other functionality in their cameras. Location determination is not an easy thing and it’s a multi-billion dollar industry in and of itself but that’s not really an excuse to delivery subpar performance if Leica is going to go through the trouble of implementing such a feature and selling it as a feature for its customers.

Edited September 29, 2021 by beewee

[BernardC]

7 hours ago, LBJ2 said:

I am not so quick to blame geotagging on the Fotos apps alone when these problems occur. It could very well be the iPhone ! 

For example. I typically pair the iPhone to my Apple watch and my car on a daily/regular basis. Occasionally, that connection just stops working for no known reason. I can see the iPhone is connected to either my car or Apple watch in their respective menus, but in reality the devices are not paired and not functioning. So I have to go through similar motions I described earlier and turn off the car or Apple Watch and turn off the iPhone and then restart everything for a complete pairing again. Sometimes I have to do this a few times and of course always a PITA because I rely daily on these devices syncing with each other. 

Lot of moving pieces to consider HW and SW and regular firmware updates particularly on the iPhone and each of these devices relies on the other to maintain a consistent connection. 

It would be interesting to know if Android users have the same issues as iPhone users. Not many people have mentioned which OS they used when the location feature worked or failed, which would help to identify the issue.

[jrp]

It's such a bummer that they can't make this usable.  With Machine Learning, it makes is much easier to generate keywords for photos if you have a precise location embedded.

[hotshew]

1 hour ago, jrp said:

It's such a bummer that they can't make this usable.  With Machine Learning, it makes is much easier to generate keywords for photos if you have a precise location embedded.

The camera manufacturers aren't getting it. They need to keep up with what a phone can do and better or Apple/Android will continue to tighten the noose around them year over year. How much thought has anybody given to geotagging their iPhone photos? It just works with nary a thought. And that's just geotagging (ancient tech by today's standards). Progress on the ML front is bridging the gap between the superior IQ that fixed function cameras provide and the unparalleled convenience of a smart phone.

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[Simone_DF]

It's not just geotagging. The most recent versions of iOS and Android have enhanced natural language processing. Go to your photo app and search "beach" or "flower" or "dog" or whatever, and you'll get quite a lot of positive search results. Photos are scanned and auto tagged through ML. I don't think we'll see anything similar in Lightroom or C1 for the foreseeable future.