Thoughts on the Leica SL2 compared to the S1/S1R

[Donzo98]

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1 hour ago, digitalfx said:

If you like M glass on S1R, you will love it on the SL2...significant difference.

RE: The EVF, the SL EVF is superior imo. Im disappointed in the "upgrade", especially since most of the initial reviews stated it was a huge improvement. IMO its not. Hopefully many of the issues can be resolved in FW.

Regarding the OP's list I think he missed a few important details

1- M lenses perform significantly better on the SL2

2- Build Quality is in a completely different league

3- EVF path is all glass optics- so far this isn't appreciated though due to issues with the display

4- SL2 is smaller and feels better in the hand imo

I don't think I missed number 1 or 4

"Positives:
More malleable files than the S1/R
SL2 is better with M glass
Better ergonomics (subjective)"

[Tailwagger]

Personally, I've spent about as much time with the SL2 EVF as I have with the SL's... only a few minutes... but I came away far more impressed this time around than last. No clue as to how it compares with the Panos, but in my view, at least from the limited time I got with it, if you can't get along with this one, mirrorless simply isn't your cup o' tea. 

[jonoslack]

16 hours ago, Robert E said:

GIs the SL2 really (?) better than the S1R with M glass or is that just what Leica lovers want us to believe?

I had the SL and loved it, now have the S1R and love it with my M glass.

 

There are 3 potential problems with M glass on any camera:

Smearing

Vignetting

Colour Shift

Leica address all of these issues with:
Thinner cover Glass (smearing)

special angled micro lenses (colour shift and vignetting)

6 bit coding (to recognise the lens

extra light sensor so as to be able to estimate the aperture.

The lens and aperture are in the exif and this then allows the camera to apply corrections for Vignetting and colour shift.

They really don't do this for nothing!

 

All the best

Jono

[jonoslack]

2 hours ago, Exodies said:

A smaller display chip will look bigger if it’s closer.

Ah! another Father Ted devotee.

[Jeff S]

2 hours ago, Tailwagger said:

Personally, I've spent about as much time with the SL2 EVF as I have with the SL's... only a few minutes... but I came away far more impressed this time around than last. No clue as to how it compares with the Panos, but in my view, at least from the limited time I got with it, if you can't get along with this one, mirrorless simply isn't your cup o' tea. 

I hope that’s true and plan to see for myself tomorrow.  But problem reports here are very specific, and contrary to SL EVF experience (most have used both).  In particular, there are three reported issues: (1)  the subject is blurry or shaky when focusing, even in MF or single AF mode (but clear in playback).  A couple of M lens users report having to use focus magnification with M lenses like the Noctilux, which was unnecessary with the SL; (2) one eyeglass wearer said that EVF/LCD display wasn’t switching properly  back and forth when his eye was placed or removed from the VF; and (3) the diopter control wheel wasn’t working properly for a couple of users.

I’m not the biggest fan of EVFs, but some I can appreciate and accept better than others. Just a matter of personal response for whatever reason.  The SL EVF I tested wasn’t ideal for me (in bright, contrasty conditions), but acceptable.  I’m hoping the SL2 EVF isn’t a step backward for my tastes, at least not to the point that it’s a deal breaker.  

One thing Leica has done better than other brands is the VF experience, whether the M, the S or the SL. I’m surprised we’re not talking about the SL2 EVF being another leap ahead of others, let alone the same or a step backwards.

Jeff

 

Edited November 23, 2019 by Jeff S

[Tailwagger]

1 hour ago, Jeff S said:

I hope that’s true and plan to see for myself tomorrow.  But problem reports here are very specific, and contrary to SL EVF experience (most have used both).  In particular, there are three reported issues: (1)  the subject is blurry or shaky when focusing, even in MF or single AF mode (but clear in playback).  A couple of M lens users report having to use focus magnification with M lenses like the Noctilux, which was unnecessary with the SL; (2) one eyeglass wearer said that EVF/LCD display wasn’t switching properly  back and forth when his eye was placed or removed from the VF; and (3) the diopter control wheel wasn’t working properly for a couple of users.

I’m not the biggest fan of EVFs, but some I can appreciate and accept better than others. Just a matter of personal response for whatever reason.  The SL EVF I tested wasn’t ideal for me (in bright, contrasty conditions), but acceptable.  I’m hoping the SL2 EVF isn’t a step backward for my tastes, at least not to the point that it’s a deal breaker.  

One thing Leica has done better than other brands is the VF experience, whether the M, the S or the SL. I’m surprised we’re not talking about the SL2 EVF being another leap ahead of others, let alone the same or a step backwards.

Jeff

 

Of all that, the only thing I noticed was number 2. In my case, it was pilot error. Turned out the camera was in an unexpected EVF mode. Once I stopped being confused and realized to cycled through modes, everything was fine.  I was in an L boutique, back lit, bright outside, muted inside. Focus was handled well.  The only negative I noticed was in one circumstance with all the back light, the subjects face, another customer, struck me as overly in shadow. Perhaps the DR of the display has been reduced (or increased?) from what current SL users are accustom to.  Or maybe metering modes might play some role in things, but it didn't occur to me at the time. I didn't have time to deep dive on the settings, I was more concerned with the mundane... how does it feel to hand, can I live with the heft, EVF,  button layout, etc.

Unfortunately, though I originally planned to, I didnt have the X1D with me to directly compare... had a M10 on my shoulder and boxed up Q for trade instead... but whereas I have found the 'blad EVF to be workable, the SL2 immediately struck me to be a significant step beyond. No doubt others wont have that reaction and perhaps it's just that I've become accustomed to the general foibles of EVFs, having enter this world with a X-E1 so many years ago.  From that time, my working style changed to try to fully assess the scene with the camera at my side. Once to eye, I'm no longer interested that much in details, just the positioning of shape. Perhaps, given my psychology, my opinions in this realm aren't to be trusted. YMMV, but for me, with the 75mm attached, and possibly crucially from the reports, set to AFs, not AFc which I rarely have need of, it was the best implementation I've yet encountered (never having owned an S1R nor SL), certainly better than I've grown to expect.  That said, it aint an OVF. Anyone expecting that will certainly be disappointed. Regardless, I look forward to getting your and others viewpoint on it. 

Edited November 23, 2019 by Tailwagger

[Stuart Richardson]

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I have the S1, and tested the SL2 and SL alongside each other. I did not note a difference between the S1 and SL2 viewfinders, but the SL2 was certainly better than the SL to my eyes. The SL I tried had a much lower dynamic range as well as grey shadows. The SL2 had a nice, contrasty image without clipping blacks or highlights. I found it very good and similar to the one in the S1. I did not specifically compare the EVF in the S1 to the SL2, but they seemed pretty comparable to me based on a cursory test.. 

[lpeeples]

Sorry but what do you mean by blurry in shooting mode?  I had the S1 and the majority of my shooting is at night.  When planning around the evf was choppy like the frame rate was off. When I changed it to fix it focus peaking turned off. Drove me crazy so I sold it.  

[caissa]

4 hours ago, jonoslack said:

There are 3 potential problems with M glass on any camera:

Smearing

Vignetting

Colour Shift

Leica address all of these issues with:
Thinner cover Glass (smearing)

special angled micro lenses (colour shift and vignetting)

6 bit coding (to recognise the lens

extra light sensor so as to be able to estimate the aperture.

The lens and aperture are in the exif and this then allows the camera to apply corrections for Vignetting and colour shift.

They really don't do this for nothing!

 

All the best

Jono

In the SL the extra light sensor is installed. Also in the SL2 as you just wrote. And in a later firmware update of the SL the guessed aperture was not displayed anymore. Has this now been changed again (in the SL2 and/or in the SL) ?

Edited November 23, 2019 by caissa

[Stuart Richardson]

9 minutes ago, lpeeples said:

Sorry but what do you mean by blurry in shooting mode?  I had the S1 and the majority of my shooting is at night.  When planning around the evf was choppy like the frame rate was off. When I changed it to fix it focus peaking turned off. Drove me crazy so I sold it.  

I noticed this a bit too. There is something odd going on with it around constant preview...so when shooting with long shutter speeds, the viewfinder will show you the image in the finder refreshed at the speed of the shutter. Once you get below 1/30th or so, this starts to make the viewfinder choppy. At speeds longer than 1/2s, it basically makes the camera unusable. This is a strange behavior that I have not experience with Sony or Leica. You can turn it off, but then you do not get the true to life exposure preview, which is what I think the camera is trying to give you. I never had an issue getting it to use focus peaking, however...

Edited November 23, 2019 by Stuart Richardson

[Donzo98]

10 minutes ago, lpeeples said:

Sorry but what do you mean by blurry in shooting mode?  I had the S1 and the majority of my shooting is at night.  When planning around the evf was choppy like the frame rate was off. When I changed it to fix it focus peaking turned off. Drove me crazy so I sold it.  

I meant exactly that... in standard shooting mode... even in AF-S the EVF is a little "off". Once you shoot a pic, and review it playback mode, it is razor sharp.

[hotshew]

My 2cents, FWIW (SL2 & S1R owner)

The S1R is an easy choice in terms of price/performance. It provides similar IQ and has more features, whereas specs are a toss-up (SL2 wins in some areas, whereas S1R wins in others). Persons will need to individually compare and evaluate the specs that matter to him or her (e.g., SL2 has better video specs, whereas S1R has faster sync speed).

If you're someone who enjoys and prioritizes build quality, then you're almost certainly going to appreciate the SL2 over the S1R. For me, the SL2 also has better ergonomics, and I prefer its more minimalist design language, which makes shooting the SL2 more fun (includes my experience with SL, which is similar). These factors alone are enough to swing me in the direction of the SL2 over the S1R, ignoring the price difference. The SL2 feels like a Mac where the S1R feels more like a PC.

If you're someone who appreciates and prioritizes value, then S1R is the clear winner.

Standout things that I prefer about the S1R:

- Articulating screen

- Cost

- 3-year warranty (if purchased before 3/31/2020 and buyer registers)

Standout things that I prefer about the SL2:

- Build quality

- Ergonomics and minimalist design

- Thinner glass stack for better compatibility with M-glass

Regarding the last point, https://kolarivision.com offers a conversion service to give the S1R a thinner glass stack for $425. I have no experience with their service, but it could be an option for someone if the deciding point comes down to the sensor glass stack.

I should also add that it's the build quality and ergonomics that sold me on the S1R. So I'm not negative on the S1R at all in this area. It's just that the SL2 is that much better (again, to me, so as not to offend anybody).

-Roland.

 

[sillbeers15]

4 hours ago, Stuart Richardson said:

I have the S1, and tested the SL2 and SL alongside each other. I did not note a difference between the S1 and SL2 viewfinders, but the SL2 was certainly better than the SL to my eyes. The SL I tried had a much lower dynamic range as well as grey shadows. The SL2 had a nice, contrasty image without clipping blacks or highlights. I found it very good and similar to the one in the S1. I did not specifically compare the EVF in the S1 to the SL2, but they seemed pretty comparable to me based on a cursory test.. 

There are much details revealed when the EVF is used to reveal pics AF accuracy in magnified mode as comparing to SL’s EVF lower resolution display (which I often cannot make up how well the focusing is due to the lower resolution). Under non magnifying display. Both EVF look similar.

[Chaemono]

vor 6 Stunden schrieb hotshew:

My 2cents, FWIW (SL2 & S1R owner)

The S1R is an easy choice in terms of price/performance. It provides similar IQ and has more features, whereas specs are a toss-up (SL2 wins in some areas, whereas S1R wins in others). Persons will need to individually compare and evaluate the specs that matter to him or her (e.g., SL2 has better video specs, whereas S1R has faster sync speed).

If you're someone who enjoys and prioritizes build quality, then you're almost certainly going to appreciate the SL2 over the S1R. For me, the SL2 also has better ergonomics, and I prefer its more minimalist design language, which makes shooting the SL2 more fun (includes my experience with SL, which is similar). These factors alone are enough to swing me in the direction of the SL2 over the S1R, ignoring the price difference. The SL2 feels like a Mac where the S1R feels more like a PC.

If you're someone who appreciates and prioritizes value, then S1R is the clear winner.

Standout things that I prefer about the S1R:

- Articulating screen

- Cost

- 3-year warranty (if purchased before 3/31/2020 and buyer registers)

Standout things that I prefer about the SL2:

- Build quality

- Ergonomics and minimalist design

- Thinner glass stack for better compatibility with M-glass

Regarding the last point, https://kolarivision.com offers a conversion service to give the S1R a thinner glass stack for $425. I have no experience with their service, but it could be an option for someone if the deciding point comes down to the sensor glass stack.

I should also add that it's the build quality and ergonomics that sold me on the S1R. So I'm not negative on the S1R at all in this area. It's just that the SL2 is that much better (again, to me, so as not to offend anybody).

-Roland.

 

+1.  Very well put, Roland.  I just want to add as a further point of differentiation aesthetics with larger M lenses just in case it’s not implied by ‘minimalist design language.’  I may show some pictures later.  Larger M lenses look out of place on the S1/R, whereas on the SL2 the combos look gorgeous.  This may not be worth a difference of $1,900 to some (adding the Kolari mod costs, thanks for that), but it is to others. Some just don’t feel like grabbing ugly things and going out to shoot with them. 

[thighslapper]

8 hours ago, Stuart Richardson said:

I noticed this a bit too. There is something odd going on with it around constant preview...so when shooting with long shutter speeds, the viewfinder will show you the image in the finder refreshed at the speed of the shutter. Once you get below 1/30th or so, this starts to make the viewfinder choppy. At speeds longer than 1/2s, it basically makes the camera unusable. This is a strange behavior that I have not experience with Sony or Leica. You can turn it off, but then you do not get the true to life exposure preview, which is what I think the camera is trying to give you. I never had an issue getting it to use focus peaking, however...

This is exactly as in the user manual ...... but quite why Panasonic implemented WYSIWYG that includes exposure, depth of field AND shutter speed is beyond me ...... as a result the EVF refreshes at the set shutter speed, so as you say, anything below 1/30 sec stutters and is unusable. Otherwise the S1R EVF performs faultlessly and the MF options and back button focussing options are very well implemented. 

[Stuart Richardson]

Another difference which might be relevant is that the SL and SL2 have autofocus when using the adapter for the S lenses. Even if you are not an S user, this might be a good way to get a top performing, weather-sealed lens. They are larger, but given the market situation, they are very inexpensive compared to what they used to be. For example, you could get the adapter and the 70mm Summarit for less than the cost of the 75mm APO Summicron, and there are lenses like the 120mm APO Macro and 180mm APO Elmar that are very useful and do not yet have an SL equivalent. These lenses have aperture usage and will magnify focus when the lens is turned on the Panasonic, but they do not autofocus. 

Edited November 24, 2019 by Stuart Richardson

[jonoslack]

9 hours ago, caissa said:

In the SL the extra light sensor is installed. Also in the SL2 as you just wrote. And in a later firmware update of the SL the guessed aperture was not displayed anymore. Has this now been changed again (in the SL2 and/or in the SL) ?

Hi There 

Yes - it is back in the SL2 (not sure about the SL) So an added benefit of the SL2 with M lenses is complete exif information.

[Chaemono]

vor 18 Stunden schrieb jonoslack:

There are 3 potential problems with M glass on any camera:

Smearing

Vignetting

Colour Shift

Leica address all of these issues with:
Thinner cover Glass (smearing)

special angled micro lenses (colour shift and vignetting)

6 bit coding (to recognise the lens

extra light sensor so as to be able to estimate the aperture.

The lens and aperture are in the exif and this then allows the camera to apply corrections for Vignetting and colour shift.

They really don't do this for nothing!

 

All the best

Jono

Jono, the 75 Noctilux on the SL2 shows tons of purple and green fringing in the OOF areas.  It's impossible to remove.  Did Leica somehow miss this lens?

Edited November 24, 2019 by Chaemono

[caissa]

Now that the SL2 has IBIS, Leica could maybe also make use of that feature and construct a new 24-90 zoom of less weight and smaller size (without OIS). Or with reduced range (28-75 or 24-50). Or even a 50-135 zoom without OIS.

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Hallo,

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[jonoslack]

On 11/24/2019 at 1:11 PM, Chaemono said:

Jono, the 75 Noctilux on the SL2 shows tons of purple and green fringing in the OOF areas.  It's impossible to remove.  Did Leica somehow miss this lens?

Hi There 

I don't have the 75 Noctilux, but that's unfortunate - is it worse than it was with the SL? - I think it was quite noticeable there as well, but it's a while since I had the 75 Noctilux. 

best