Refurbished MM1 from Leica

[RayD28]

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I am in the USA. I received a quote for 3,500 Euro  This price includes VAT.  If I mail order and have the camera delivered to the USA it’s my understanding that the order is not subject to VAT.  Is this correct? If so, how much should the price come down?  I am not clear if VAT might be different in Germany compared to the UK.  

Thanks for your help. I googled for an answer but I can’t find anything that directly answers my question.  

[michali]

As far as I'm aware there's no VAT rebate on used or 2nd hand equipment when exporting out of  Europe.

The VAT rebate applies only to new equipment being exported out of the EU.

 

[michali]

7 minutes ago, RayD28 said:

I am in the USA. I received a quote for 3,500 Euro  This price includes VAT.  If I mail order and have the camera delivered to the USA it’s my understanding that the order is not subject to VAT.  Is this correct? If so, how much should the price come down?  I am not clear if VAT might be different in Germany compared to the UK.  

Thanks for your help. I googled for an answer but I can’t find anything that directly answers my question.  

The VAT rebate applies only to new equipment being exported out of Europe. As far as I'm aware there's no VAT rebate on used or 2nd hand equipment when exporting out of  Europe.

The Vat rate is 19% in Germany but you don't get the full 19% back, you get approx. 16% back. However as I mentioned above, this applies only to new equipment not used.

 

Edited November 15, 2019 by michali

[jaapv]

I'm sorry, Mike, I just looked it up on an official government site and this is incorrect. Goods exported outside the EU, used or new, are liable to 0% VAT.

https://www.belastingdienst.nl/wps/wcm/connect/bldcontentnl/belastingdienst/zakelijk/btw/zakendoen_met_het_buitenland/zakendoen_buiten_de_eu/btw_berekenen/btw_berekenen_bij_export_van_goederen_naar_niet_eu_landen/btw_berekenen_bij_export_naar_niet_eu_landen

Google Translate of the first paragraph (highlight mine)

Quote

When you export goods to non-EU countries or store them in a customs warehouse, you charge 0% VAT to your buyer. It does not matter whether you deliver to an entrepreneur or to a private individual. You must prove the export. You do this with the help of your administration. Do you deliver to a foreign entrepreneur who collects the goods from you? Then you can also use the 0% rate. You must then prove that your buyer is an entrepreneur and that the goods have left the EU

@ OP: VAT in Germany is 19%.

[michali]

Just double check this. I recently purchased a used R lens from Leica Shop in Vienna for export to SA. The price quoted is the same with & without VAT see below:

Leica Summilux-R 11880 1,4/80mm

Whereas the price on new equipment is different, it's quoted with & without VAT:

Leica SL2, Body, black

Similar story when I recently purchased a new CL from Ffordes in the UK for export to SA, VAT was rebated.  I also purchased a used 23mm TL at the same time, and the VAT wasn't rebated.

 

 

Edited November 15, 2019 by michali

[jaapv]

That may be the way they did it, but it is incorrect. The only exception is if they used the optional "Differenzbesteuerung" which means that they bought the goods from a private person without VAT and in that case they only have to charge VAT over the profit. And that VAT shouldn't be charged to an EU-export.You can recognize such deals if the shop has a notice like " Umsatzsteuer nicht nachweisbar" or similar in the description.

[IkarusJohn]

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Not sure that is entirely accurate, Jaap.  If the goods are sold on commission (ie, for someone else rather than by the shop itself), then VAT is charged on the commission only, and there’s no VAT rebate.

Lots of online vendors quote only VAT inclusive prices. You have to ask (1) if they’ll ship outside the EU (many won’t) and (2) what the ex-VAT price is.

[Chuck]

42 minutes ago, RayD28 said:

I am in the USA. I received a quote for 3,500 Euro  This price includes VAT.  If I mail order and have the camera delivered to the USA it’s my understanding that the order is not subject to VAT.  Is this correct? If so, how much should the price come down?  I am not clear if VAT might be different in Germany compared to the UK.  

Thanks for your help. I googled for an answer but I can’t find anything that directly answers my question.  

 

Based on the helpful pricing information provided by T25UFO in another posting, I contacted the very helpful Michel Razafimahefa at Leica several hours ago by email and telephone, and happy to say, ordered a refurbished Monochrom.  I am in the U.S.  Michel indicated that the price is 3500 Euros, which includes VAT.  BUT, because the camera is being shipped to the U.S., the VAT is deducted from the price I will pay.  The price I will pay, taking delivery in the U.S., is 2941.18 Euros. Hope this helps. 

[T25UFO]

6 minutes ago, Chuck said:

 

Based on the helpful pricing information provided by T25UFO in another posting, I contacted the very helpful Michel Razafimahefa at Leica several hours ago by email and telephone, and happy to say, ordered a refurbished Monochrom.  I am in the U.S.  Michel indicated that the price is 3500 Euros, which includes VAT.  BUT, because the camera is being shipped to the U.S., the VAT is deducted from the price I will pay.  The price I will pay, taking delivery in the U.S., is 2941.18 Euros. Hope this helps. 

That is, indeed, my understanding - the full 19% is deducted.  Just for reference, I asked Michel to supply an extra battery for the Monochrom (couldn't find a UK dealer with any stock) and the price was €59.85 including VAT.  That is about half the retail price in the UK.  Hope you don't have to wait too long for your Monochrom 🙂

[Chuck]

2 minutes ago, T25UFO said:

That is, indeed, my understanding - the full 19% is deducted.  Just for reference, I asked Michel to supply an extra battery for the Monochrom (couldn't find a UK dealer with any stock) and the price was €59.85 including VAT.  That is about half the retail price in the UK.  Hope you don't have to wait too long for your Monochrom 🙂

Michel indicated that the current backlog is 4 to 5 weeks.  He also indicated that there are around 50 cameras remaining available for the refurbishment program, and that 100 or so cameras have already been refurbished, which includes M9s, M9-Ps and Monochroms. Thanks for the extra battery tip.

[jaapv]

39 minutes ago, IkarusJohn said:

Not sure that is entirely accurate, Jaap.  If the goods are sold on commission (ie, for someone else rather than by the shop itself), then VAT is charged on the commission only, and there’s no VAT rebate.

Lots of online vendors quote only VAT inclusive prices. You have to ask (1) if they’ll ship outside the EU (many won’t) and (2) what the ex-VAT price is.

I'm not talking about commission, but buy-and-sell. I have not researched the VAT on services.

[RayD28]

48 minutes ago, Chuck said:

 

Based on the helpful pricing information provided by T25UFO in another posting, I contacted the very helpful Michel Razafimahefa at Leica several hours ago by email and telephone, and happy to say, ordered a refurbished Monochrom.  I am in the U.S.  Michel indicated that the price is 3500 Euros, which includes VAT.  BUT, because the camera is being shipped to the U.S., the VAT is deducted from the price I will pay.  The price I will pay, taking delivery in the U.S., is 2941.18 Euros. Hope this helps. 

Perfect.  Thanks, Chuck.

33 minutes ago, T25UFO said:

That is, indeed, my understanding - the full 19% is deducted.  Just for reference, I asked Michel to supply an extra battery for the Monochrom (couldn't find a UK dealer with any stock) and the price was €59.85 including VAT.  That is about half the retail price in the UK.  Hope you don't have to wait too long for your Monochrom 🙂

Thanks for the info.  

24 minutes ago, Chuck said:

Michel indicated that the current backlog is 4 to 5 weeks.  He also indicated that there are around 50 cameras remaining available for the refurbishment program, and that 100 or so cameras have already been refurbished, which includes M9s, M9-Ps and Monochroms. Thanks for the extra battery tip.

Good to know.  

[IkarusJohn]

30 minutes ago, jaapv said:

I'm not talking about commission, but buy-and-sell. I have not researched the VAT on services.

For simple trade in secondhand goods, you are correct - https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/IP_95_21

However, the refurbished MM1 cameras are not just resales.  As I understand it, Leica does considerable work on the cameras, which means that the VAT is on more than the commission.  As Chuck commented above, Leica is offering a VAT price  ...

1 hour ago, Chuck said:

Michel indicated that the price is 3500 Euros, which includes VAT.  BUT, because the camera is being shipped to the U.S., the VAT is deducted from the price I will pay.  The price I will pay, taking delivery in the U.S., is 2941.18 Euros. Hope this help

 

[jaapv]

Hence the word optional. 

[IkarusJohn]

2 minutes ago, jaapv said:

Hence the word optional. 

Not entirely, if you mean the vendor can refuse the refund.  

Theoretically, as an overseas buyer (ie, buying outside the EU, and not under the rebate scheme), you can insist that the VAT should not be applied - there’s no justification to charge it.  Of course, the real option is to take your business elsewhere (I don’t buy from UK based Leica dealers for this reason).

[jaapv]

Some places see it as extra revenue. They certainly won’t declare VAT on such a sale. 
 

no I don’t mean the refund The choice is between full VAT or partial in some cases.